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Foreign born son, both parents SC.. NS dilemma

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MrSonky
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Foreign born son, both parents SC.. NS dilemma

Postby MrSonky » Mon, 20 Mar 2017 2:35 pm

Hi all, my first time posting in this forum. I've searched the forum for an answer to this but I haven't found a satisfactory answer. Basically, my wife and I are both SC, living and working in Melbourne as Australian PR. Our son will be born in 6 month's time. At the time of birth, he will be given the option of Australian citizenship. The thing is, we are very happy living and working here, so still in two minds about whether we will go back to SG in the future, thus still holding on to our SCs.

We are not sure if we want to register him as Singaporean-by-descent, which I understand from this forum/ICA that we can do this within 1 year of birth. This means he will hold dual citizenship until 21 years old, before he needs to decide to renounce either. But as a boy, this also means he will be called up to NS at 16.5 years.. this is where it gets complicated.

If we decide to live in Melbourne, my child would have to enlist in NS when the time comes, despite having lived his whole life in Aust. Although I am pro-NS, I feel that it would be unfair as his mates would be going to uni after high school whereas he winds up in a foreign country, indoctrinated in a military of a country he will feel little for.

However, if he renounces singapore citizenship before 11 (according to this forum, 11 years old seems to be the safest age, although ICA says before 16.5 years old is ok), he will kiss SC goodbye forever, from what I have read. Is this true? If say he grows up to become a professional and is able to obtain SPR by his own merit later on.. he might get rejected due to "unresolved issues with CMPB" due to giving up SC before serving NS.

If the above holds true, then would it not be better that I get Aust Citizenship for him at birth but skip the SC-by-descent registration for now? That way... if say 10 years time we decide to return to SG, can he still be eligible for SC if he agrees to do NS? How about in 20 years time (missed out on NS).. can he still get SPR-by-merit on his own, or would he then be barred from this?

Sorry for long question, I'm pretty sure my wife and I are not the only 2 SCs with a foreign-born son! All my Singaporean friends in aust so far have girls or will be having girls.. so is not an issue for them.

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Re: Foreign born son, both parents SC.. NS dilemma

Postby x9200 » Mon, 20 Mar 2017 5:01 pm

MrSonky wrote:Hi all, my first time posting in this forum. I've searched the forum for an answer to this but I haven't found a satisfactory answer. Basically, my wife and I are both SC, living and working in Melbourne as Australian PR. Our son will be born in 6 month's time. At the time of birth, he will be given the option of Australian citizenship. The thing is, we are very happy living and working here, so still in two minds about whether we will go back to SG in the future, thus still holding on to our SCs.

We are not sure if we want to register him as Singaporean-by-descent, which I understand from this forum/ICA that we can do this within 1 year of birth. This means he will hold dual citizenship until 21 years old, before he needs to decide to renounce either. But as a boy, this also means he will be called up to NS at 16.5 years.. this is where it gets complicated.

If we decide to live in Melbourne, my child would have to enlist in NS when the time comes, despite having lived his whole life in Aust. Although I am pro-NS, I feel that it would be unfair as his mates would be going to uni after high school whereas he winds up in a foreign country, indoctrinated in a military of a country he will feel little for.

However, if he renounces singapore citizenship before 11 (according to this forum, 11 years old seems to be the safest age, although ICA says before 16.5 years old is ok), he will kiss SC goodbye forever, from what I have read. Is this true? If say he grows up to become a professional and is able to obtain SPR by his own merit later on.. he might get rejected due to "unresolved issues with CMPB" due to giving up SC before serving NS.

If the above holds true, then would it not be better that I get Aust Citizenship for him at birth but skip the SC-by-descent registration for now? That way... if say 10 years time we decide to return to SG, can he still be eligible for SC if he agrees to do NS? How about in 20 years time (missed out on NS).. can he still get SPR-by-merit on his own, or would he then be barred from this?

Sorry for long question, I'm pretty sure my wife and I are not the only 2 SCs with a foreign-born son! All my Singaporean friends in aust so far have girls or will be having girls.. so is not an issue for them.

If I am not mistaken if at least one of you is a SC by birth then your kid acquire the citizenship by descent regardless you register him or not.

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Re: Foreign born son, both parents SC.. NS dilemma

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Mon, 20 Mar 2017 5:27 pm

https://www.mfa.gov.sg/content/mfa/over ... tizen.html

http://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/p ... t-overseas
Speaking at the debate on the spending plans of the Prime Minister's Office, Mrs Teo, who oversees population matters, said the Government has "kept a calibrated pace of immigration" to prevent the citizen population from shrinking.

A total of 20,815 citizenships were given out last year. Among these, 8 per cent, or 1,600, went to children who were born overseas to at least one Singaporean parent, or "Singapore citizens by descent".


Being born overseas to parents who are both SCs still does not make them a citizen by birth. They have 12 months to register the birth (and cannot have received citizenship in the country they were born in). After 12 months there will have to be a letter explaining why the late registration but it doesn't mean that it will be granted.

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Re: Foreign born son, both parents SC.. NS dilemma

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Mon, 20 Mar 2017 5:30 pm

If he was never registered as a SC after his birth, come adulthood and a prime position is presented, if it's a male child, you are absolutely correct in that they will see both Singaporean parents so will know it was done to avoid NS and that means it will be a cold day in h**l before he's given an EP or anything other that a SVP to visit Singapore.

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Re: Foreign born son, both parents SC.. NS dilemma

Postby MrSonky » Tue, 21 Mar 2017 7:14 am

Thanks x9200 that's what I was hoping for. But also thanks to sundaymorningstaple for the links and your frank opinions. As I've read from your previous posts, it seems that CMPB has an incredibly long memory and pretty much confirms my worse fears.

In my shoes, would you apply for SC for the unborn son at time of birth, and have him give it up when he is say 11? Or would you take your chances by not registering him for SC? Travelling would seem weird too, given that both parents would be on SG passports and our child is on an Aust passport.. not sure if that would pose a problem with customs.

Also would like to hear from others who have been through a similar situation or have had to make the same considerations 10/20 years ago..

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Re: RE: Re: Foreign born son, both parents SC.. NS dilemma

Postby ecureilx » Tue, 21 Mar 2017 9:08 am

MrSonky wrote:Travelling would seem weird too, given that both parents would be on SG passports and our child is on an Aust passport.. not sure if that would pose a problem with customs...


you mean immigration ?

I have seen parents on one passport and child on another, never caused issues ... except in some nearby country. Keeping a copy of the birth certificate helped in those cases.

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Re: Foreign born son, both parents SC.. NS dilemma

Postby x9200 » Tue, 21 Mar 2017 10:34 am

For me this Singapore citizenship stuff is always confusing. Firstly, there is a mess in terminology - normally registration could be also understood as naturalization, what apparently here may not be the case. Secondly, I would expect all the civilized countries to work under some treaties to avoid the statelessness. If a child born to 2 SG citizens (regardless the place) is not automatically given any citizenship, this significantly increases the risk of the child being stateless. It just makes no sense form international law stand point, but perhaps makes sens from the NS perspective. Anyway, SMS is right. In the Statutes the registration is explicitly mentioned.

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Re: Foreign born son, both parents SC.. NS dilemma

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 21 Mar 2017 10:44 am

MrSonky wrote:Thanks x9200 that's what I was hoping for. But also thanks to sundaymorningstaple for the links and your frank opinions. As I've read from your previous posts, it seems that CMPB has an incredibly long memory and pretty much confirms my worse fears.

In my shoes, would you apply for SC for the unborn son at time of birth, and have him give it up when he is say 11? Or would you take your chances by not registering him for SC? Travelling would seem weird too, given that both parents would be on SG passports and our child is on an Aust passport.. not sure if that would pose a problem with customs.

Also would like to hear from others who have been through a similar situation or have had to make the same considerations 10/20 years ago..


Do you think, in 11 years you will be willing to give up SGC? The reason I ask is if you register him as a SGC by descent, he will need to do NS or you will have to have him opt out at age 11 (to be safe - I think 13 is the cutoff but I still wouldn't test it). However, IF you should decide to register him as a SGC then what will happen at the age of 11 is that he possibly will not be given the necessary exit permit as the SG government will know that the parents are keeping a back door open to Singapore. Once he misses his call up, as a SGC he will be classified as a defaulter and, in theory, he could be picked up in the airport transit lounge upon landing on a transit via Changi enroute to somewhere else (more and more information is being shared between countries' airports due to terrorism).

The only way around that is to divest both of yourselves of SGC (taking up AUC) and removing any connections to Singapore, e.g., HDB, CPF, etc. Otherwise, it makes it even more difficult as you are showing that the whole reason is to avoid NS. They have seen this all too often so the scenario is nothing new. Don't like to be so negative, but we've seen it all to often here.

Think carefully, not about your own beliefs/desires but about whether or not you will be shutting doors in your sons future in an ever shrinking globe.

I went through similar but different as my son was born here with dual citizenship. He grew up knowing that I was a US ex-military veteran during the VN war and firmly believe in military service. I used to talk to him about military service virtually every years until he was around 11. I decided he would do his service in Singapore as it was the safest place to do NS. In the US he might, like me, get sent to a war we didn't belong in or couldn't win and he might have to pay the ultimate price. Fortunately, today the US military is 100% volunteers and no conscription (the draft is still there but mothballed). My son did his NS here in Singapore in the Navy. He has no regrets as he understands the importance of it even though most of his cohort do not.

Think very carefully.

sms

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Re: Foreign born son, both parents SC.. NS dilemma

Postby bcheng74 » Tue, 21 Mar 2017 11:10 am

As you are already Australian permanent resident, can you and your wife apply for Australian citizenship?


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Re: Foreign born son, both parents SC.. NS dilemma

Postby beard1 » Tue, 21 Mar 2017 11:24 am

there seem to be a few clear cut options:
[*] all of you be AUS Citizens - parents give up any ties to SG
[*] Son becomes AU Citizen - minimal impact on travel to anywhere except SG. Chance of becoming SC ever = approx. 0%.
[*] Son becomes SC - serves NS here with no real 'feelings' for Singapore, retains SC, AU PR.

I find that a discussion of which age is optimal to rescind his SC (if he takes it up) is academic - it's an irreversible decision and the end outcomes don't change.

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Re: Foreign born son, both parents SC.. NS dilemma

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 21 Mar 2017 2:20 pm

beard1 wrote:there seem to be a few clear cut options:
[*] all of you be AUS Citizens - parents give up any ties to SG
[*] Son becomes AU Citizen - minimal impact on travel to anywhere except SG. Chance of becoming SC ever = approx. 0%.
[*] Son becomes SC - serves NS here with no real 'feelings' for Singapore, retains SC, AU PR.

I find that a discussion of which age is optimal to rescind his SC (if he takes it up) is academic - it's an irreversible decision and the end outcomes don't change.


Not quite true. If he follows the prescribed protocols AND his parents give up their SGCs, he could, if suitably qualified still get an EP here to work. In theory he could even get PR (but not in reality), but SC is definitely out of the question. In fact, should he marry a Singaporean he could possibly get an LTVP as well, but again, SC would always elude him.

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Re: Foreign born son, both parents SC.. NS dilemma

Postby beard1 » Tue, 21 Mar 2017 2:48 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:
beard1 wrote:there seem to be a few clear cut options:
[*] all of you be AUS Citizens - parents give up any ties to SG
[*] Son becomes AU Citizen - minimal impact on travel to anywhere except SG. Chance of becoming SC ever = approx. 0%.
[*] Son becomes SC - serves NS here with no real 'feelings' for Singapore, retains SC, AU PR.

I find that a discussion of which age is optimal to rescind his SC (if he takes it up) is academic - it's an irreversible decision and the end outcomes don't change.


Not quite true. If he follows the prescribed protocols AND his parents give up their SGCs, he could, if suitably qualified still get an EP here to work. In theory he could even get PR (but not in reality), but SC is definitely out of the question. In fact, should he marry a Singaporean he could possibly get an LTVP as well, but again, SC would always elude him.


still falls within the parameters of what I said, no? His travel/immigration to SG would be impacted but still possible if say he is a super qualified data scientist or whatever the flavour is when the time comes, but SC is out of the question.. unfinished business with cmpb etc.

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Re: Foreign born son, both parents SC.. NS dilemma

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 21 Mar 2017 2:57 pm

beard1 wrote:
sundaymorningstaple wrote:
beard1 wrote:there seem to be a few clear cut options:
[*] all of you be AUS Citizens - parents give up any ties to SG
[*] Son becomes AU Citizen - minimal impact on travel to anywhere except SG. Chance of becoming SC ever = approx. 0%.
[*] Son becomes SC - serves NS here with no real 'feelings' for Singapore, retains SC, AU PR.

I find that a discussion of which age is optimal to rescind his SC (if he takes it up) is academic - it's an irreversible decision and the end outcomes don't change.


Not quite true. If he follows the prescribed protocols AND his parents give up their SGCs, he could, if suitably qualified still get an EP here to work. In theory he could even get PR (but not in reality), but SC is definitely out of the question. In fact, should he marry a Singaporean he could possibly get an LTVP as well, but again, SC would always elude him.


still falls within the parameters of what I said, no? His travel/immigration to SG would be impacted but still possible if say he is a super qualified data scientist or whatever the flavour is when the time comes, but SC is out of the question.. unfinished business with cmpb etc.


Again, assuming his parents gave up their SGC and proper protocols were followed, he would have been allowed to forgo his NS and renounce at the age of 21. Following that, he would be allowed to work in Singapore just like any other Joe as long as he met the prevailing conditions for employment here. Doesn't need to be a rocket scientist or neurosurgeon, could be any IT nerd or anything else he's qualified for but is in short supply by the locals here. He would NOT be barred from working here. He'd only be denied SGC. That all. Most on EP here are not interested in SGC.

If protocols were followed, there would be absolutely no travel limitations for future trips to Singapore nor Work Visa problems assuming normal EP credential were met.

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Re: Foreign born son, both parents SC.. NS dilemma

Postby beard1 » Tue, 21 Mar 2017 3:00 pm

OK fair enough. OP seemed to suggest focus is getting SPR if possible, hence my discussion focusing on beyond EP. I see your point.

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Re: Foreign born son, both parents SC.. NS dilemma

Postby MrSonky » Wed, 22 Mar 2017 6:54 am

Guys, thanks again for your contributions.

To SMS, really appreciate that you shared this personal story with us.
sundaymorningstaple wrote:
went through similar but different as my son was born here with dual citizenship. He grew up knowing that I was a US ex-military veteran during the VN war and firmly believe in military service. I used to talk to him about military service virtually every years until he was around 11. I decided he would do his service in Singapore as it was the safest place to do NS. In the US he might, like me, get sent to a war we didn't belong in or couldn't win and he might have to pay the ultimate price. Fortunately, today the US military is 100% volunteers and no conscription (the draft is still there but mothballed). My son did his NS here in Singapore in the Navy. He has no regrets as he understands the importance of it even though most of his cohort do not.


I served as an officer during my time in NS and agree that the lessons and values I have acquired during my brief stint in the SAF has helped me through my career/studies thus far. I'm definitely pro-NS, just for the reasons mentioned earlier that I have my reservations. I think the approach you have taken with your own child resonates well with me. Your personal situation reminds me of a once-off debate coach I had during my secondary school years in Maris Stella High school.

beard1 wrote:
there seem to be a few clear cut options:
[*] all of you be AUS Citizens - parents give up any ties to SG
[*] Son becomes AU Citizen - minimal impact on travel to anywhere except SG. Chance of becoming SC ever = approx. 0%.
[*] Son becomes SC - serves NS here with no real 'feelings' for Singapore, retains SC, AU PR.


To beard, thanks for laying out the options so succinctly. As I have barely ever worked in Singapore, my CPF is near zero and we do not have an HDB flat. But I'm holding on the SC bcos of my ageing parents.. in case I ever need to go back and live with them. It seems to me that Options 2 and 3 are most viable, with 3 being the best of both worlds (Aust PR being the same level of benefit as AUC).. but with the uncertainty that my future child will be able to make a decision by 11-13 yo. Hope he grows up loving history, war games and videos games like his father..

I still have much to ponder, but this discussion so far has certainly helped in my considerations . Further feedback/personal anecdotes are welcomed..


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