Foreigner with a Dependant Pass applying for a job , Is it really this hard?

[coblos]

Hi All! I'm a foreigner living in Singapore with a Dependant Pass (my wife works here with an EP).
I heard that it will be easier to get a job in Singapore when you already have a DP, compared to when you have no residential status at all.
But I find it's really hard to get a job here, even after I received my DP.
Speaking about my background, I was working as an engineer in an oil & gas company in Australia for 3 years. To be exact, my job is a field engineer, a kind of mixture between Petroleum-Mechanical-Electrical Engineer. We work in an oilfield, in a rig (Deepwater Horizon anyone? ).
The company is renowned for those who work in the energy sector, as it's the largest oilfield service company in the world.
I graduated from a university in Indonesia, not Singapore.

I've tried applying around 200-250 vacancies, in various areas, ranging from oil & gas to non-oil&gas related vacancies.
From engineer to consultant. From manufacturing industry to consumer research company.
Man, I'm no longer picky about applying jobs.
They always rejected my application.

Even after my wife's friend who works as a senior HR staff in a multi-national company asked for my CV in order to help me getting a job, I still haven't landed any job...
I even applied to some jobs as a call center guy & sales over the phone.
They did invite me for an interview.. but I'm still trying to find a job where I can develop my career. Not saying that a job as a call center guy is bad though.

I understand that oil & gas or energy sector is a big no-no right now as the oil price is still lying low.
I don't see too much oil & gas related vacancies anyway, therefore I applied to a lot of vacancies with little relation to my experience.

Is there any other foreigner who experience the same issue?
Or is it really hard to get a job as a foreigner in Singapore nowadays?
Or probably it's hard because of my background in the oil & gas sector and companies in Singapore is really picky?
I'm trying to get some suggestions based on people's experience getting a job in Singapore.

Sorry for the long post, Thanks a lot!

[sundaymorningstaple]

Unless you have related experience/academic qualifications for the position you are applying for (outside of the O&G sector) you will likely have a hard time finding a position, but it's not impossible but 3 to 6 months isn't unusual at all. Sometime you have to dumb down to find something/anything at all. It's isn't easy.

Right now as you are well aware of, the rigs are starting to stack again, and until prices come up out of the basement it could stay that way for a while. Perseverance is key.

Yes, I think most people over the age of 30 know about the Deepwater Horizon. Especially folks like me, who worked in the G.O.M. and most of S.E.Asia diving with Oceaneering Int'l. (I retired from the oil patch in 1994). Funny enough I used to work on that company's shallow water spud barges when I was just starting out and removing lots of old shallow water platforms using explosives (I was a licensed blaster in the US). I also did a lot of subsurface well cutoffs for cemented up wells out in the Arco Field off of Java as well. Today my daughter works for Maersk Drilling and my Son-in-law works for Halliburton (mechanical design engineer). You know that Halliburton is shedding companies they bought up as well right? Sperry Sun was spun back off as Independent and they are shedding people left and right as well. My Niece's husband worked for Sperry and he has been made redundant in the last couple of months in NZ.

Take a deep breath, and hang in there. Something totally unrelated might just pop up. Have you tried the shipyards? I know they are shedding orders as well. In fact I believe that KepFels has shed something like 6K workers this past year. Rough times ahead.

[coblos]

Unless you have related experience/academic qualifications for the position you are applying for (outside of the O&G sector) you will likely have a hard time finding a position, but it's not impossible but 3 to 6 months isn't unusual at all. Sometime you have to dumb down to find something/anything at all. It's isn't easy.

Right now as you are well aware of, the rigs are starting to stack again, and until prices come up out of the basement it could stay that way for a while. Perseverance is key.

Yes, I think most people over the age of 30 know about the Deepwater Horizon. Especially folks like me, who worked in the G.O.M. and most of S.E.Asia diving with Oceaneering Int'l. (I retired from the oil patch in 1994). Funny enough I used to work on that company's shallow water spud barges when I was just starting out and removing lots of old shallow water platforms using explosives (I was a licensed blaster in the US). I also did a lot of subsurface well cutoffs for cemented up wells out in the Arco Field off of Java as well. Today my daughter works for Maersk Drilling and my Son-in-law works for Halliburton (mechanical design engineer). You know that Halliburton is shedding companies they bought up as well right? Sperry Sun was spun back off as Independent and they are shedding people left and right as well. My Niece's husband worked for Sperry and he has been made redundant in the last couple of months in NZ.

Take a deep breath, and hang in there. Something totally unrelated might just pop up. Have you tried the shipyards? I know they are shedding orders as well. In fact I believe that KepFels has shed something like 6K workers this past year. Rough times ahead.

Wow nice to meet someone who's been offshore in Singapore.
Seems like this country is full of IT people everywhere.
When I told them I used to work for Schlumberger, they're like, whaat.. sklum burger?

I've tried almost any jobs, including marine/shipyard.
Also some government job vacancies, in here http://www.careers.gov.sg.
I heard foreigner can apply and got recruited.
Maybe many HR in Singapore is not familiar with my experience as a field engineer or with my previous company, Schlumberger..
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like oil & gas exploration business is not prevalent in Singapore.
I never met any Singaporean in the field (compared to Indian, American, European, Malaysian, Indo etc). Oil refinery & oilfield equipment manufacture is pretty big in Singapore, I know it.

What you're saying is correct as well, maybe it's because I don't have a related experience/academic qualifications for the position I'm applying for.
I applied for a consultant in McKinsey but I never work in that sector, and my background is engineering physics. Applied for research analyst in Nielsen, the same.
Applied for Instrumentation Engineer in Schneider, which my educational background is related with the requirement, but it seems like they don't want to hire people with no real exp in Instrumentation in times like this.

It's been 1.5 years, and no good at all.
Couple of years ago companies might be ok to hire a guy with mechanical engineering degree and 0 exp into a pipeline engineer position which require 2 yrs exp.
It seems like many companies are tightening their requirement now.

Sometime I wonder is it because I'm just a DP holder?
Will a PR increase my chance of getting a job?

[sundaymorningstaple]

What I would suggest, is applying for jobs and letting the employers know that you will work on a Letter of Consent (LoC) This is available to DP holders and also holder of LTVPs if spouse is a PR or Citizen.

I would go the the MOM website (mom.gov.sg) and look up Letter of Consent so you can learn about it and then educate the interviewer or put it into your application. You might have to work a wee bit cheaper an you will not get any of the uplifts or allowances for housing, etc. as the employer will know that the EP holder will have those. Your LoC will be tied to your spouse's EP - expiring when the EP does. It also has to be renewed yearly. This is not really good as you could be both out of a job at the same time should the EP holder lose their position. But it allows you to work and at the same time allows you to continue to search for a job that would provide you with an EP. The LoC or EP would go along way towards getting a family PR application approved as it shows you are employable. You would most probably need to explain the LoC to your potential employer as most know nuts about it. (I have 4 LoC staff at the moment - the beauty of it is that they don't count against any manpower quotas (but neither can them be used in the headcount to determine quotas either). The other selling point is that the employers do not have to pay any levies if you end up on an S pass and they don't have to contribute to CPF unless you get PR. Learn what you can about it. It's a good selling tool.

I spent 20 years as a commercial oil patch diver all over the world I have 50+ years of SCUBA under my belt as well. (not too often any more though). I've been in Human Resources for the last 20+ years and my boss says I can retire in 6 more years!)

[ecureilx]

Wow nice to meet someone who's been offshore in Singapore.
Seems like this country is full of IT people everywhere.
When I told them I used to work for Schlumberger, they're like, whaat.. sklum burger?

I've tried almost any jobs, including marine/shipyard.
Also some government job vacancies, in here http://www.careers.gov.sg.
I heard foreigner can apply and got recruited.
Maybe many HR in Singapore is not familiar with my experience as a field engineer or with my previous company, Schlumberger..
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like oil & gas exploration business is not prevalent in Singapore.
I never met any Singaporean in the field (compared to Indian, American, European, Malaysian, Indo etc). Oil refinery & oilfield equipment manufacture is pretty big in Singapore, I know it.

What you're saying is correct as well, maybe it's because I don't have a related experience/academic qualifications for the position I'm applying for.
I applied for a consultant in McKinsey but I never work in that sector, and my background is engineering physics. Applied for research analyst in Nielsen, the same.
Applied for Instrumentation Engineer in Schneider, which my educational background is related with the requirement, but it seems like they don't want to hire people with no real exp in Instrumentation in times like this.

It's been 1.5 years, and no good at all.
Couple of years ago companies might be ok to hire a guy with mechanical engineering degree and 0 exp into a pipeline engineer position which require 2 yrs exp.
It seems like many companies are tightening their requirement now.

Sometime I wonder is it because I'm just a DP holder?
Will a PR increase my chance of getting a job?

I met enough locals in O & G .. while being contracted to a couple of EPC companies and also outside work, know few locals in that line.

Agreed, they are minority.

As for your immigration status, such employers don't care what your status is.

As SMS said, there's a massive down turn and recruitment for some industries is at a standstill, so to say.

Take it easy and network. That will give you a leg up.

[ecureilx]

Take a deep breath, and hang in there. Something totally unrelated might just pop up. Have you tried the shipyards? I know they are shedding orders as well. In fact I believe that KepFels has shed something like 6K workers this past year. Rough times ahead.

A friend who's the CEO of a mid east based Oil service company said he sees rigs being scrapped so fast that the next 5 years later it will be a mad rush to build new ones

[coblos]

Take a deep breath, and hang in there. Something totally unrelated might just pop up. Have you tried the shipyards? I know they are shedding orders as well. In fact I believe that KepFels has shed something like 6K workers this past year. Rough times ahead.

A friend who's the CEO of a mid east based Oil service company said he sees rigs being scrapped so fast that the next 5 years later it will be a mad rush to build new ones

yeah so true.
I used to have like 30-ish people from my uni who works in the oilfield service industry.
Now, only 5 remains..
tough times for us

[coblos]

What I would suggest, is applying for jobs and letting the employers know that you will work on a Letter of Consent (LoC) This is available to DP holders and also holder of LTVPs if spouse is a PR or Citizen.

I would go the the MOM website (mom.gov.sg) and look up Letter of Consent so you can learn about it and then educate the interviewer or put it into your application. You might have to work a wee bit cheaper an you will not get any of the uplifts or allowances for housing, etc. as the employer will know that the EP holder will have those. Your LoC will be tied to your spouse's EP - expiring when the EP does. It also has to be renewed yearly. This is not really good as you could be both out of a job at the same time should the EP holder lose their position. But it allows you to work and at the same time allows you to continue to search for a job that would provide you with an EP. The LoC or EP would go along way towards getting a family PR application approved as it shows you are employable. You would most probably need to explain the LoC to your potential employer as most know nuts about it. (I have 4 LoC staff at the moment - the beauty of it is that they don't count against any manpower quotas (but neither can them be used in the headcount to determine quotas either). The other selling point is that the employers do not have to pay any levies if you end up on an S pass and they don't have to contribute to CPF unless you get PR. Learn what you can about it. It's a good selling tool.

I spent 20 years as a commercial oil patch diver all over the world I have 50+ years of SCUBA under my belt as well. (not too often any more though). I've been in Human Resources for the last 20+ years and my boss says I can retire in 6 more years!)

Thanks sms, i didn't realize you replied.
I know LoC, and I believe it's applicable for any DP holders even though their spouse is not a PR/Citizen.
So far I only state that I'm a DP holder in my cover letter and resume (I also state my FIN).
Do you think if I put something like this in my resume & cover letter, it will give better chance? :
"As a DP Holder, a company which hire me will only need to apply a Letter of Consent (LoC), which is easily approved by MoM, will not involve foreign worker levy payment, and won't affect the manpower quota for foreigner"

And I read in reddit, people said those who work under LoC usually are part time workers like waiter/waitress, shopkeeper, etc.
Which means their salary is way less than an EP holder.
Is this true sms?

[sundaymorningstaple]

First of all, spouses of PR/Citizens cannot be DP holders. They would be LTVP or LTVP+ holders. Only spouses and children of EP holders are Depend4ent Pass holders.

Yes, a short paragraph like that would tell the whole story. As I've already noted, you will likely have to take a lesser rate of pay for the same position, but, it does give you leverage in your hunt for another position as an EP holder and if it's a local employer they are all the same and will know why your basic salary was lower at that point of time.

I have 4 LoC holders at the moment. 2 are field technicians, one is an operations coordinator and one is my accountant. (the last two are Vietnamese and the first two are Malaysians.) They are all being paid an a rate that is comparable with their current job scope and is in alignment with the rest of my Foreign Talent AND my local staff.

But then again, I'm not a local, but a westerner.

Remember one thing. You can always say no. At the moment you aren't even getting the chance to say no.

[coblos]

First of all, spouses of PR/Citizens cannot be DP holders. They would be LTVP or LTVP+ holders. Only spouses and children of EP holders are Depend4ent Pass holders.

Yes, a short paragraph like that would tell the whole story. As I've already noted, you will likely have to take a lesser rate of pay for the same position, but, it does give you leverage in your hunt for another position as an EP holder and if it's a local employer they are all the same and will know why your basic salary was lower at that point of time.

I have 4 LoC holders at the moment. 2 are field technicians, one is an operations coordinator and one is my accountant. (the last two are Vietnamese and the first two are Malaysians.) They are all being paid an a rate that is comparable with their current job scope and is in alignment with the rest of my Foreign Talent AND my local staff.

But then again, I'm not a local, but a westerner.

Remember one thing. You can always say no. At the moment you aren't even getting the chance to say no.

Hmm I see.. For me it's fine to be paid less than the other in the same position as long as I can land a job which can give value for my experience.
It's still better than the salary that I can get in Indonesia I believe, if I compare my wife's salary with her friends who work in the same company in Indo.
It's not like they're going to pay me with $1.5-2k less right?

My question so far is, is it possible for me to land a job for Bachelors degree with an LoC?
I'm still under the impression that if a company want to hire me for a position which require Bachelors degree qualification, they would rather apply EP for me.
Maybe because I've been applying so many times, with many improvements and adjustments in my resume, I start to feel a bit hopeless..
So far I've been doing forex trading for a year in partnership with a bank, and I put it in my resume so that I'm not like the guy who don't do anything for a year :p

What is your opinion SMS, do you think I can still have a job for let's say as an Instrumentation Engineer in a mid-to-large EPC company like Schneider Electrics or Amec Foster Wheeler?
They're not a big company like P&G, Chevron, etc, but being in a multi national company will give some added value I believe..

[coblos]

The problem which I face when I'm applying in Indonesia is a bit difference. I've been applying to an open to public vacancies and also vacancies which I received from friends/networking.
1. First, with my experience in working overseas in a large multinational company, which not many Indonesian can have, people think I would ask for a way higher salary.
2. Combined with my experience which is not really applicable anywhere outside the oilfield service industry, they would rather recruit another candidate. This morel likely happens with smaller companies which is not familiar with oilfield service.
I heard those explanation from some recruiters/people who are opening a vacancies themselves. Some are the friends of my wife so they told her the real reason of not hiring me.

Two years ago, before the global economic slowdown & oil glut, most of my friends who resigned or got fired from an oilfield service company (yes, the turnover in oilfield service company is pretty high), can easily land a job as an engineer in a manufacturing industry or even as a supply chain in an FMCG company. Both positions are not related to a field engineer position.
Not mentioning how they can easily get a job in an oil company (operator) or another oilfield service company.

For me it feels like, damn my international exposure should have bring a better chance for me to land a job, even more in my own home country...
Made me feel like I don't have a good qualification, and would rather wait for the oil price to recover to a reasonable level and go back to the field...

Do you think some recruiters in Singapore also think the same?

[sundaymorningstaple]

The problem you face is not new. My best mate, a Kiwi who is a Planning/Scheduling Engineer has been bouncing around Asia for over 25 years and in the business of EPC type construction with Chiyoda, Chiyoda (Sg), Foster Wheeler, Asia Badger and a host of other throughout the region. He was down outside of Surabaya for almost 5 years in two hitches on the Tuban Refinery. He's currently on a short project in VN outside of Hanoi that has been extended till Feb but he's not been able to find anything locally here for about 7 years now. Projects that have been on the drawing boards and have him slated for a position from the outset Tender have dried up with the economic doom & gloom that is settling on everybody and everything. He had PR here but had to give it up while in Tuban as he couldn't find SAF in Singapore that would pay him enough to meet expenses.

You are right on the Int'l exposure. It should give you a leg up back in Indonesia but often HR people think, as you say, that you will require way more than their budget (and they are probably right). But at the end of the day, a lot will depend on how deep your own pockets are and I reckon if you are looking for a job, then the pockets aren't all that deep. Been there and done that several times. Most recruiters have, for the reasons you state, a glut of O&G personnel on their databases at the current time for all the reasons you've stated. If these recruiters work the O&G industry, they will already know the situation and the problems. I was a headhunter for 10 years after I left the O&G industry in '94 (both up- and downstream) but I specialized in only that industry with some heavy civils as well). If a recruiter doesn't understand that a lot of that knowledge is transferable then you have problems.

Sadly, no matter who or where you apply for a position, you salary is likely to be 60% or less than you were getting with SlumberJ especially if you are applying in the Non-O&G sector. This, while sad, will not impact future O&G applications as you (and them) will have historical records of the downturn and subsequent trimming of headcounts across all sectors of the O&G industry during this period where people still have to exist and adjust their lifestyles until that industry picks up again. (It's how I came to be in Singapore in the first place). I and many of my friends in the service companies when through a similar patch back in 1981~1982 during the 1980's Oil Glut. As divers, we were paid on day rate but as 70% of the active rigs in the G.O.M. were stacked in the Sabine river, I had only worked 5.5 days in the first 5 full month of 1982 and 1981 was about the same. It couldn't continue like that so I accepted a position in Singapore to ride the drillship m/v Chancellorsville (razorblades now!) on a Bell Sat System off the cost of Sumatra in a extremely high H2S oilfield. The rest is history. So if the writing is on the wall and you want to stay in the O&G business you may have to reach a lot further afield and be prepared for those long flights, etc. My Daughter, who's now back in Singapore, still with Maersk, was working in Luanda, Angola and previously on the double derrick Maersk Discoverer off the coast of Africa for 3 years, while her husband had been seconded to Halliburton's Design office in Dallas TX. Wasn't an easy time but they made it. You might have to do something similar. Good Luck

sms

[coblos]

The problem you face is not new. My best mate, a Kiwi who is a Planning/Scheduling Engineer has been bouncing around Asia for over 25 years and in the business of EPC type construction with Chiyoda, Chiyoda (Sg), Foster Wheeler, Asia Badger and a host of other throughout the region. He was down outside of Surabaya for almost 5 years in two hitches on the Tuban Refinery. He's currently on a short project in VN outside of Hanoi that has been extended till Feb but he's not been able to find anything locally here for about 7 years now. Projects that have been on the drawing boards and have him slated for a position from the outset Tender have dried up with the economic doom & gloom that is settling on everybody and everything. He had PR here but had to give it up while in Tuban as he couldn't find SAF in Singapore that would pay him enough to meet expenses.

You are right on the Int'l exposure. It should give you a leg up back in Indonesia but often HR people think, as you say, that you will require way more than their budget (and they are probably right). But at the end of the day, a lot will depend on how deep your own pockets are and I reckon if you are looking for a job, then the pockets aren't all that deep. Been there and done that several times. Most recruiters have, for the reasons you state, a glut of O&G personnel on their databases at the current time for all the reasons you've stated. If these recruiters work the O&G industry, they will already know the situation and the problems. I was a headhunter for 10 years after I left the O&G industry in '94 (both up- and downstream) but I specialized in only that industry with some heavy civils as well). If a recruiter doesn't understand that a lot of that knowledge is transferable then you have problems.

Sadly, no matter who or where you apply for a position, you salary is likely to be 60% or less than you were getting with SlumberJ especially if you are applying in the Non-O&G sector. This, while sad, will not impact future O&G applications as you (and them) will have historical records of the downturn and subsequent trimming of headcounts across all sectors of the O&G industry during this period where people still have to exist and adjust their lifestyles until that industry picks up again. (It's how I came to be in Singapore in the first place). I and many of my friends in the service companies when through a similar patch back in 1981~1982 during the 1980's Oil Glut. As divers, we were paid on day rate but as 70% of the active rigs in the G.O.M. were stacked in the Sabine river, I had only worked 5.5 days in the first 5 full month of 1982 and 1981 was about the same. It couldn't continue like that so I accepted a position in Singapore to ride the drillship m/v Chancellorsville (razorblades now!) on a Bell Sat System off the cost of Sumatra in a extremely high H2S oilfield. The rest is history. So if the writing is on the wall and you want to stay in the O&G business you may have to reach a lot further afield and be prepared for those long flights, etc. My Daughter, who's now back in Singapore, still with Maersk, was working in Luanda, Angola and previously on the double derrick Maersk Discoverer off the coast of Africa for 3 years, while her husband had been seconded to Halliburton's Design office in Dallas TX. Wasn't an easy time but they made it. You might have to do something similar. Good Luck

sms

Thanks sms for the reply.
Really appreciate that you gave some thoughts on my situation.
For me it's fine to have a way lower salary than SLB.
I don't expect to get the same amount of money if I'm working in an office, but at least my work-life balance will be much better.
I'm even not expecting to get a higher salary for having an international exposure anymore, with the global economic situation like this, many companies are more picky and selective in my opinion.
I can't just put it in my resume/cover letter "I'm willing to have the same renumeration as the others" or "I'm not going to ask for a too high salary", dunno it's just feel not alright haha.

I already told my wife that if the only opportunity for me is to work far away, and in the oilfield again (we had 2 years long time distance relationship before with a very minimal communication), I will take it.
I have also applied to some oilfield service vacancies overseas, but most likely they will only hire local for now.
My SLB base in Australia used to have 20 foreigners in the office.
Now they only got 5.
Expats will cost too much for MNCs, especially O&G companies, which is tight on budget now.

Maybe I'll just keep trying to apply some oilfield vacancies overseas, while doing this forex trading.
So far money it's not an issue, but since I'm young, I have this kind of anxiety that being unemployed for so long will reduce my chance in landing a decent job, haha.
Hope this OPEC agreement will give a better situation for O&G.

Cheers!

[sundaymorningstaple]

Good Luck Mate. As noted, I've been there and done that. It's a rough life but the rewards are good when the going is good. And I hate to say it, but some are cut out for it and some aren't I was, and I've been chaffing at the bite for 25 years to go back offshore but too old now!

[coblos]

Good Luck Mate. As noted, I've been there and done that. It's a rough life but the rewards are good when the going is good. And I hate to say it, but some are cut out for it and some aren't I was, and I've been chaffing at the bite for 25 years to go back offshore but too old now!

Cheers, time to enjoy the days in the golden age!