Minor incident could spark war

[TMD]

'Russia says...'. Well i wouldn't trust the Russians as far as I could throw them, as the saying goes.
Mind you Turkey are up to their necks in playing one faction off against another. But keep in mind the charming Putin threatened to nuke Turkey just last week or so...

Did Putin really said that ?
I found some media with misleading headers while the content said otherwise..
http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest- ... jet-downed

p.s. and the impression I get re: oil coming from Syria into Turkey is that it's the equivalent of running home-made moonshine over the border. It's low quality, and in small volumes. I can see why the US suggest it is insignificant, within the greater scheme of things that's about it.

Yeah..I think US has valid reason to ignore Russia' allegation, never mind the fact one of its NATO member somehow is buying low quality oil from ISIL exporter.

pps Both Russia and Turkey are playing off ISIS and Syria for their own advantage. It's hard to know from one week to the next who is supporting whom, as it shifts so fast. But loosely, Moscow support Syria/Assad (for his oil exports to Russia), and Turkey support ISIS to try and keep Assad in check, since he's a megalomaniac and right on the door-step.

OMG...Turkey is ISIS's ally ?
Has Ankara made this position official ?

[JR8]

I would say Turkey is "tolerating" ISIS, as long as there is a chance to dump the unwanted Kurds and Friendly Turkmen.

Probably about right. It is apparently the Kurds who have been setting off bombs all over the place...

Ok, what how bad of a guy is Assad ? His baathist party is a form of socialism, and he was not getting involved in other people's business till Iraq fell and refugees started to pour in.

He was below the radar prior to the Arab Spring. And since he was of little consequence to 'the West', that's how thing previously stayed. As often happens though, countries can become pawns for the 'super-powers' [N/S Vietnam arguably being an earlier example of such a 'proxy war'].
Leave the autocratic dictator alone, and he'll likely keep himself to himself. But now it's so clear that Assad is being used as a proxy/pawn; it can't be ignored, and hence he has now got his gloves off.

Oh, wait, he wants his land bring occupied by Israel. Is that what its all about ? Added to his keeping the Lebanese factions in check, lest the problems spill over.

Well I don't know, it gets complicated. I was reading a graphic a while back of who supports whom US, Russia, Saudi, Iran, China etc). Most of the on-the-ground factions are known by acronyms, almost all containing a variation of P's, K's, and R's. At a guess, party, communist, revolutionary. But then you see the PKK are the arch-enemy of the KKP and so on, and it's almost a thing of parody. In fact I have seen it parodied, as with say 20 groups involved all called some combo of K-P-P-R-P-K-K-R... or what ever, I'm not sure who understands WTH is going on...

Truth is Assad has mellowed.

Heh? I think whereas he used to be his own citizen's problem, he's now become an international one. Do a Google/Image search on 'Syrians throw man from roof' if you want to see how Assad's men operate. Mellow indeed [not]...

[JR8]

Did Putin really said that ?
I found some media with misleading headers while the content said otherwise.. [Daily Star link]

The Daily Star is at the loonier/high-drama end of the UK tabloid market. The Daily Mirror is still a tabloid but somewhat more balanced... [dd. 27th Nov - about 10 days after G20 was held in Turkey]
'Putin told to NUKE Istanbul in revenge for downing of jet bomber by Turkey'
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news ... ge-6915546

OMG.Turkey is ISIS's ally ? Has Ankara made this position official ?

No, not 'ally'. There seems to be more a policy of [useful] passive accommodation. Perhaps 'my enemy's enemy is my friend'?

[ecureilx]

Heh? I think whereas he used to be his own citizen's problem, he's now become an international one. Do a Google/Image search on 'Syrians throw man from roof' if you want to see how Assad's men operate. Mellow indeed [not]...

You are mixing ISIS with Assad

[TMD]

I found some media with misleading headers while the content said otherwise.. [Daily Star link]
The Daily Star is at the loonier/high-drama end of the UK tabloid market.
The Daily Mirror is still a tabloid but somewhat more balanced... [dd. 27th Nov - about 10 days after G20 was held in Turkey]
'Putin told to NUKE Istanbul in revenge for downing of jet bomber by Turkey'
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news ... ge-6915546

Precisely my point: Clearly some media ARE misleading their readers, be they looney or balanced ones.
Fact is Putin did not said about nuking Turkey.

OMG.Turkey is ISIS's ally ? Has Ankara made this position official ?

No, not 'ally'. There seems to be more a policy of [useful] passive accommodation. Perhaps 'my enemy's enemy is my friend'?

Careful with that logic: It is applicable to US, UK, Japan and rest of others who's citizen's head got taken off courtesy of Jihadi John. So what makes Turkey now in relation to IS ? Convenient business partner ?

I certainly won't call the act of shooting down a Russian bomber as "passive" when facts of the oil trade between Turkey and IS is confirmed by the US itself.

[JR8]

Precisely my point: Clearly some media ARE misleading their readers, be they looney or balanced ones. Fact is Putin did not said about nuking Turkey.

But one of his generals did, and has Putin sacked him for highly dangerous misrepresentation - nope.

Careful with that logic: It is applicable to US, UK, Japan and rest of others who's citizen's head got taken off courtesy of Jihadi John. So what makes Turkey now in relation to IS ? Convenient business partner ?
I certainly won't call the act of shooting down a Russian bomber as "passive" when facts of the oil trade between Turkey and IS is confirmed by the US itself.

Russia has a recent and growing history of flexing it's muscles, and pushing it's luck. The Russian fighter that Turkey shot down had crossed Turkish air-space, despite multiple warnings. Similarly the UK-RAF intercept Russian air-force fighters and bombers probing and testing UK territorial limits, on almost a weekly basis.

[x9200]

I certainly won't call the act of shooting down a Russian bomber as "passive" when facts of the oil trade between Turkey and IS is confirmed by the US itself.

Russia has a recent and growing history of flexing it's muscles, and pushing it's luck. The Russian fighter that Turkey shot down had crossed Turkish air-space, despite multiple warnings. Similarly the UK-RAF intercept Russian air-force fighters and bombers probing and testing UK territorial limits, on almost a weekly basis.

TMD would probably need to be a bit more on European news feed to understand what really happened. It is not limited to the UK territory but all the Baltic sea area. The Baltic NATO and non-NATO countries were just expressing their concern (for all such encounters) and Russians kept provoking again and again. Turkey on the other hand, after the first violation of their airspace warned Russians and after it happened again, they have enough cojones (and a single big army) to pass the Russians the right message.

[Eltonios]

You're wrong. Russian plane bomber did not violate the Turkish border. It's a lie. Moreover, it is the Turks breached the border of Syria and war crimes. They (the Turks) were well aware of whose aircraft is and why he is there. They knocked down in order to give some sort of response to the destruction of the caravans of oil from Syria to Turkey. With which some high-ranking politicians in Turkey have a share.

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[sundaymorningstaple]

Were you in either of the planes or monitoring the ground based radar units? How can you be so sure of anything to just say "you're wrong"? Where is your 'proof'.

Do you have an inside track from Kazakhstan?

[JR8]

The bare-chested Soviet warrior! How the citizenry are in awe of this plastic-surgeried old knave.

Really, can you think of any other citizenry where that photo would be published with the idea it would be attractive, a reason to rally to, celebrate, and vote for someone? Hahaha!

Putin's air-force routinely tests and breaks international air-space around the UK. But being 'of the advanced world' the RAF just force them back out. Though I recall an incident a few months back when one his planes engaged 'missile lock-on'. Well, play such games over 'less enlightened' and less worldly airspaces and accept what happens eh... play hard, and face the consequences.

[JR8]

'Turkish F-16 fighter jets were scrambled after a Russian warplane violated Turkey's air space on Saturday, the foreign ministry said.
Russia said the incident was a "navigational error" and that it has "clarified" the matter to Ankara.
Turkish jets patrolling the border were also "harassed" by an unidentified plane on Sunday, Turkey said.'
BBC - 5/10/15. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34441201

Take the p*ss at your own peril, as you discovered. That was when Putin threatened to nuke Istanbul - class act eh? What a global statesman, not, more a global pariah!

[Eltonios]

First. Think with your head and not using the media lies.
Second. Use logic.

If we take into account the Turkish version, the question immediately arises: how the Turks could prevent Russian pilots for five minutes if he had spent in the airspace of the country only a few seconds? According to the Turkish map, the width of the projection, which allegedly crossed the Su-24, a little more than two kilometers. Five minutes of flight at a cruising speed of the Su-24 - more than 60 km. Assuming that warn about the readiness to attack the Turks began to advance when the Su-24 flew over Syria, and the blow inflicted on a pre-illuminated targets in the few seconds that the Russian aircraft was allegedly over Turkey, then, according to experts, it is a violation taken in this respect of international norms.

There are special phrases in English, and all the pilots they memorize. If the crew does not respond, the fighters fit, show him that you have, one, climbed the wrong place. In neutral waters as NATO fighters accompanied Russian Tu-160, watched them fly. So here, if they can not understand, whose plane is and why it turned out, would come up. Is the plane plunged into their territory for 100 km? No. He did his job and went to the airport for landing.

In addition, it also signed an agreement with the Americans, Russian give flight data, communicate to each other do not beat down. But Turkey is not only a member of NATO, it is still in the US-led coalition.

The version that the plane was shot down over Syria, and not over Turkey, also confirmed that the wreckage of the board fell 4 kilometers from the border in Syria. And he fell almost vertically, it can be seen even on the set. The fact that he could fly in the fall of four kilometers from the border - is unrealistic.

All their claims are built on a lie. Even if they hurriedly ten times warned it would be a half a minute or two, he would in the meantime flew 30 km and even more. And why they were there in the air? They were on duty in the ambush. Radar information they had on the ground. And it looks like the fighters aim for radiation is not included, and included before the start. Because the plane is a system of radiation detection radar scopes. If the crew saw that it was irradiated, they would have included a system of heat traps, and would still be the question would be shot down or not.

Honored Test Pilot, Hero of Russia, Colonel Igor Malikov said that to prove where the aircraft was shot down, it is easy.

Radar screens photographed, especially in combat. Now it all becomes elementary. Yes, even if he flew for a few seconds, that's no reason to shoot. The hilly terrain is very difficult to define in general, you flew over the border or not. Fighting pass next to this feature. Well, if he flew, but so what? He walked out of ammunition, bombed. Then went home.

All the warnings are recorded on the tape. Well, let us then give what they said. At what frequency talking about? Did the pilots tuned to this frequency? In the air, you can chat anything, not the fact that someone will hear it.

Even in the US administration said that the Russian SU-24 was shot down over Syria teritorriey. Lying does not work, as the data from the heat trace.

[ecureilx]

Even in the US administration said that the Russian SU-24 was shot down over Syria teritorriey. Lying does not work, as the data from the heat trace.

Exactly, like how the Malaysians blasted MH17 with their own Buk missile !!!!!

[x9200]

Eltonios, I think you'd better run before our own ethnic Russian but Ukrainian Sergei is back and sees this excellent piece of Russian propaganda you pasted above. The style is unmistakable.

Hard to believe. Our own Soviet troll. The forum must be at it's peak. Perhaps time to sell?

[nakatago]

Eltonios, I think you'd better run before our own ethnic Russian but Ukrainian Sergei is back and sees this excellent piece of Russian propaganda you pasted above. The style is unmistakable.

Hard to believe. Our own Soviet troll. The forum must be at it's peak. Perhaps time to sell?

Do you doubt our comrade?!