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PEP employment visa vs P1 employment visa

Relocating, travelling or planning to make Singapore home? Discuss the criterias, passes or visa that is required.
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Re: PEP employment visa vs P1 employment visa

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sun, 08 Nov 2015 7:41 pm

She should go for it. She probably has a better chance of getting PR if she explained in the application that she will replace her CPF before actually gaining PR once the AIP is received. With that she may well make it. This is a real mess as it seems she was trying to abuse the system and got caught because of her children. Now she is caught between a rock and a hard place. Hopefully ICA was have some compassion. I worry that the unthinkable will happen. She will get PR & Citizenship and you will be shut out. It might also be wise to mull over that scenario as well, considering the way things have been going for Indian nationals over the past 5 years.

Did the children live with her parents or did the ex-husband have custody?

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Re: PEP employment visa vs P1 employment visa

Postby littledesires » Sun, 08 Nov 2015 9:07 pm

She did ask ICA the question of returning any CPF money - 3 months after renunciation with the intent of regaining back the PR and Citizenship.

ICA told her, it can only be done after she receives a PR again as her CPF account is not valid anymore.
She has this exchange of conversation with ICA on this matter in her email as a record of her intend.

They had joint custody. The kids were staying with her parents until they were too weak to take care. So they had an understanding the kids would then stay with the father. Now that she is here, the kids take turn to stay at both places.

Both kids are above 18 now.

So are you suggesting a solo application by her is best for now. Mine can be something I can apply on my own later in order not to jeopardize her chances.

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Re: PEP employment visa vs P1 employment visa

Postby BBCWatcher » Sun, 08 Nov 2015 9:34 pm

I'm still recommending against a solo PR application.

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Re: PEP employment visa vs P1 employment visa

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sun, 08 Nov 2015 11:46 pm

Okay. The one question that has not been answered nor has the information be volunteered or asked is "how long have you two been married?"

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Re: PEP employment visa vs P1 employment visa

Postby littledesires » Mon, 09 Nov 2015 9:56 am

2.5 years

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Re: PEP employment visa vs P1 employment visa

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Mon, 09 Nov 2015 1:27 pm

I'm afraid that BBC might be watching you both get rejected if you apply for a joint PR at this juncture as I think ICA will be looking at the possibility of a new spouse of a certain ethnic background trying to ride on the coattails of a PR/SC into Singapore. I'd like to be wrong but my gut tells me otherwise, so, if you are okay with the possibility of a dual rejection and can deal with it, follow BBC's advise. I've already given you mine.

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Re: PEP employment visa vs P1 employment visa

Postby BBCWatcher » Mon, 09 Nov 2015 5:28 pm

OK, here's the argument on the other side.

ICA will know you're married. That's not a secret. One of the threshold questions (we assume) is whether your wife actually wants to become a permanent resident of Singapore or not. Married couples normally want to live together, particularly happily married couples. Does your spouse really want to be (and will she be) a long-term resident of Singapore if her spouse does not share her goal? That's the core problem with a solo PR application as I see it.

Or, to put it more crudely, will ICA think you're headed off to Australia (for example) to nail down a third country for the household to live in the moment ICA approves your spouse's PR? The absence of a co-applicant spouse also conveys information. She followed her first husband to Canada, after all....

Who knows, really. One could second guess ICA endlessly and fruitlessly. However, in my view since the marriage is not a secret you might as well act like the permanent residents you want to be. That said, she could be the "lead" PR applicant and you the "trailing" PR applicant if you think she has the stronger application. If ICA wants to approve her but reject you they still can. If you fear you're "dragging her down" then failing to apply doesn't seem to me like a solution (and probably the opposite), though divorce might be a solution. ;)

Anyway, take your own best guesses at the answers to these questions:

1. How should ICA interpret your failure to apply for PR with your spouse?

2. How should ICA interpret your application for PR with your spouse?

Then decide how you'd like to proceed. Although if you simply don't want to become a permanent resident of Singapore, then the decision is easy, isn't it?

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Re: PEP employment visa vs P1 employment visa

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Mon, 09 Nov 2015 6:02 pm

BBCWatcher wrote: She followed her first husband to Canada, after all....

Who knows, really. One could second guess ICA endlessly and fruitlessly. However, in my view since the marriage is not a secret you might as well act like the permanent residents you want to be. That said, she could be the "lead" PR applicant and you the "trailing" PR applicant if you think she has the stronger application. If ICA wants to approve her but reject you they still can. If you fear you're "dragging her down" then failing to apply doesn't seem to me like a solution (and probably the opposite), though divorce might be a solution. ;)

Anyway, take your own best guesses at the answers to these questions:

1. How should ICA interpret your failure to apply for PR with your spouse?

2. How should ICA interpret your application for PR with your spouse?

Then decide how you'd like to proceed. Although if you simply don't want to become a permanent resident of Singapore, then the decision is easy, isn't it?


I don't think she followed her ex to Canada. In fact later she also said in response to one of my posts that the children were in Singapore and after the grandparents got to old the ex had joint custody (and still does - which they now share).

She had two children from her first marriage to feed ( a boy and a girl). She got a good job offer and left for Canada first with the hope of bringing her kids when she settled down.


But yes, they have to look at it from both ways and "buys their tickets and takes their chances".

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Re: PEP employment visa vs P1 employment visa

Postby littledesires » Mon, 09 Nov 2015 7:17 pm

Thanks Guys for giving me a different perspectives of how ICA can view our situation.

1. With regards to ethnic background, wont my wife have the same issue? Or is it the fact that she is an ex Singaporean give her a slight edge in competition with others of the same ethnicity?
2. How good are these PR agencies for PR applications? or are they just a waste of time and money?

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Re: PEP employment visa vs P1 employment visa

Postby BBCWatcher » Mon, 09 Nov 2015 9:04 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:I don't think she followed her ex to Canada.

I probably have it backwards, but who knows which is "worse." ;)

littledesires wrote:1. With regards to ethnic background, wont my wife have the same issue?

Her ethnic background won't be a secret in her PR application, and she cannot change it. If ICA wants to discriminate on that basis or any other, ICA can.

Or is it the fact that she is an ex Singaporean give her a slight edge in competition with others of the same ethnicity?

Maybe. Or maybe ICA doesn't like being scorned, so to speak. There's nothing she can do about these facts either.

2. How good are these PR agencies for PR applications? or are they just a waste of time and money?

My view is that it can be helpful having an intelligent person with a strong command of the English language review ICA's few instructions and your application(s). I have to assume that it's better to follow ICA's instructions and to communicate clearly than not. However, I don't think such a review requires a PR agency.

Theoretically a large PR agency could develop some working theories about what ICA prefers and does not prefer, how ICA's preferences change over time, and how to emphasize certain points within applications. Also theoretically ICA could detect such efforts and view agency-prepped applications as less authentic representations of the applicants. I tend to think these factors cancel each other out and that, beyond the sort of review I mentioned in the previous paragraph, agencies probably don't add much value. But that's just a guess.

I can make a plausible argument in defense of such services in other contexts. In the United States, for example, there are many highly paid university applicant advisors that help students from well-to-do families improve their applications for admission. It's a significant industry, but it's also a different industry. There are hundreds (or at least scores) of excellent U.S. universities, and an important part of what those advisors do is simply steer students to apply to universities that make the most sense for them. That's not the case here. There's only one office receiving applications for PR in Singapore: ICA.

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Re: PEP employment visa vs P1 employment visa

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Mon, 09 Nov 2015 9:23 pm

A PR agency will only do one thing and that is drain your wallet. Even the one on here I've taken to task on FB (because he's a paid advertiser here I cannot). He claims a 90% success rate however after dissecting his site, deep within, buried within the garbage, is the statement that they will only take on those cases that they think that they can be successful with. So give them everything that they ask for without question and you may or may not be successful. The PR agency will have no better success than you will.

Oh, and I will give you something a little stronger than anecdotal evidence. How about some 1st person data?

I was rejected the first time I went up to bat and on appeal was also rejected. I waited 2 years and reapplied and was successful. For the record I was already here 9 years by that time. Back in those days you actually had an interview before you received your PR AIP (with two ICA officers, mind you, at the same time. You were ring-fenced!). I was told 15 years later at SICC (where my wife was working till she retired) by the same PR officer at a social function at the club (who, by the way, was #2 at ICA by that time - may be retired himself now), that the reason I was rejected the first time was that ICA doesn't like to get applications that were prepared by lawyers (which I had used foolishly the first time). When you use an external agency they look very closely as they figure that somebody is trying to hide something if they need to use an external source to fill out a form that an O level certificate holder can fill out. His words, not mine. Granted that was over 20 years ago, but I reckon the mindset of mistrust still exists today, especially in view of the abuse they have received at the hands of certain ethnic groups in the past decade.

Anyway, good luck.

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Re: PEP employment visa vs P1 employment visa

Postby ecureilx » Mon, 09 Nov 2015 10:29 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote: Granted that was over 20 years ago, but I reckon the mindset of mistrust still exists today, especially in view of the abuse they have received at the hands of certain ethnic groups in the past decade.


As of now, all I know is, those who 'can' engage agents and lawyers are those who come under the Investor scheme.

I know an Asian who didn't turn up for his interview or document submission, and all was done by a "LARGE" legal firm, as he was coming on an Investor scheme. And he sounded a bit surprised when I said regular folks need to turn up in person ;)

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Re: PEP employment visa vs P1 employment visa

Postby littledesires » Tue, 10 Nov 2015 12:57 pm

I Guess the best plan would be to do a self application rather than an agency application.

Fill up the application form, collect all relevant documents and write a genuine cover letter presenting the case showing genuine intent to stay in Singapore and regain back the citizenship.

Preparing for this earlier, would give more time to refine the letter as well as ensure all documents are in place when it is time to apply

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Re: PEP employment visa vs P1 employment visa

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 10 Nov 2015 12:58 pm

^^ This. Good Luck. The mother need to be reunited with the family where she can assist in their welfare. I assume she is an only child?

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Re: PEP employment visa vs P1 employment visa

Postby littledesires » Tue, 10 Nov 2015 2:31 pm

Yes she is.

Although not sure how to present why she left without making it look that she felt at that time Singapore wasn't the best place for her career to be. That kind of gives a bad impression


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