Job offer in Singapore

[zzm9980]

In terms of welcoming by general public, people from developing countries are not welcome, even if they are ethinic chinese. Ang Mohs are definitely not welcome. I think the only people they kind of "dont hate" or "neutral" about are perhaps the Japanese, Koreans, Honkies and Taiwanese.

I'd disagree. Not sure what "Honkies" are; in the US thats a derogatory term for caucasians. I'm going to assume you mean HK Chinese.

It's easily seen, just looking at these forums at PR approvals, that any 'overseas' Chinese, specifically straits Chinese, those from Malaysia and Indonesia, have a leg up on everyone else. And they're definitely "developing countries". I haven't see enough evidence either way for Taiwanese or HK Chinese that they're favored. I'd be a bit surprised by HKers having favor; an HK citizen never loses their HK ID, even if they take Singapore citizenship. So in essence they're dual-citizen and can go home at any time. Something SG gov doesn't want.

[Wd40]

ZZM, I am not talking about the Gahmen welcome, lah. I am talking about the general public welcoming. Malaysian Chinese and Indo Chinese are also hated , if you read some of the other forums. Japanese are worshiped and are supposed to be the best tenants, Australians are supposed to be the worst tenants if you read the condosingapore forum.

[sundaymorningstaple]

What we are talking about is, frankly, very hard to put into words. It's a general state of mind and a tension in the air. There is nothing really untowards about the animosity against foreigners except that that locals are bloody sick & tired of the foreigne expats coming to Singapore and stealing the locals jobs (it's not like that at all, but unfortunately, the local muppets cannot see past the end of their noses where their myopic eyes are glued to their smartphones while they walk down the street bumping into unwary pedestrians who are unaware that the must give way to any bumbling local on the walkways. The sneer or comments are just beneath the surface and occasionally become vocal, but it rare that it escalates into anything more than that. The women are much tougher than the guys here and they have acid tongues. So, a good description might be like standing near by a telsa coil. You can feel it even though it's not actually directly in contact with you. The muggy humidity here is interrupted buy the wet season (the seasons here are wet and wetter) and before you say London is the same, it's like this 365 a year so it tends to get old if you are used to 'seasons'. I guess you could say it's much of a sameness that just grinds you down. Others, like myself and PNGMK have been here donkey's years and have become part of the woodwork, so it is doable (hell, the locals have been doing it all their lives!) Go for it, but don't be surprised should you find out after 6 months (normal honeymoon period) that it is getting pretty old, pretty fast.

[zzm9980]

Regarding the weather, I hate it but I won't try to convince you you will also. Maybe you'll like it, or just not care. I don't know nor do I care.

When you say I won't be welcome... Do you mean "racially abused in the street" not welcome, or "the Visa office won't like you" or just "won't get invited to any parties or BBQs"?

A little bit of all of it, the sentiment getting progressively larger for each of your examples. Some people post anecdotes about getting racially abused in the streets. I've personally never had it happen, but I don't doubt those that say it has happened to them.

The Government ('Visa office' in yor example) is progressively reducing benefits/taking away perks for the various classes of foreigners. I've only been here three years, but I've seen:

On Foreigners / non-PR:
-My EP tier (PEP) become 4x hard to qualify for by salary and lose 40% of its validity. The P1s and P2s have lost benefits related to dependents. The lower tier ones have been changed so many times (benefits related to dependents lost, requirements toughened) that I can't keep track.
-Rental restrictions on renting HDB to foreigners have been tightened. The Max lease before the landlord must renew permission from the government has been shortened to 18 months. Each individual building now has a 'quota' on the number of foreigners allowed to rent in it. Note that SGren don't really rent, especially HDB, thus it's a huge artificial constraint on rental supply for foreigners.
-ABSD (stamp duty) on property purchases by foreigners has skyrocketed unless you're one of a very few nationalities (British isn't one of them). Plenty of posts on this.

On PR:
- Just getting one is getting progressively more difficult. As alluded too, very well qualified foreigners developing countries who have time invested and a legitimate desire to stay are being turned down unless they have certain non-published but obvious racial characteristics. (British caucasian isn't one of them) Even well qualified from what you'd assume are 'desirable' countries are getting turned down. Basically the local ethnic majority wants more like itself.
- Even if you get PR, can't buy used subsidized housing anymore for the first three years. Due to the dual-market (more on this later) that adds a significant cost to living. True, some foreigners abused this, but not all. It's mostly to please ignorant angry voters.
- IF you are a PR and get your subsidized used housing, you can't ever sublet it, even if you're posted overseas for work.
- Additional (but not as large as foreigners above) ABSD on private property purchases

I'm sure theres dozens of other things I'm missing, but this is just off the top of my head in the past 2-3 years.

For the last part on BBQs and parties, yes, in most cases only expect to get invited to the parties of fellow foreigners, or *occasionally* overseas educated locals. If you get invited by a "local", expect to often find out you're wrong and that person isn't actually local, but a PR (or recent new citizen) themselves. Let embarrassment ensue (yes this has happened to me more than a few times )

[zzm9980]

ZZM, I am not talking about the Gahmen welcome, lah. I am talking about the general public welcoming. Malaysian Chinese and Indo Chinese are also hated , if you read some of the other forums. Japanese are worshiped and are supposed to be the best tenants, Australians are supposed to be the worst tenants if you read the condosingapore forum.

Oh, ok. The Malaysian thing I don't know. Of my 'local' friends, a huge chunk are very intertwined with Malaysia. Wife from KL, cousins, aunts, grannies, etc, all there. Going back and forth constantly. Makes sense really. Reminds me of Mexican families in Southern California with Mexico. I can't sense any hate or animosity towards them, nor could I see how given how many have close relatives currently there.

The Indo Chinese, maybe. I know a few, and they seem a bit more cloistered off in their own cliques. My anecdotal impression is they're much more seen as all filthy rich, often through corruption.

[nbe]

I'm still not convinced :p If you've lived in London you'll see there is a lot of stereotyping of races and sometimes hatred. Ever heard of the EDL? I bet SG doesn't have anything that bad, the government wouldn't allow it like they do here.

London has plenty of Chinese people but other than getting stereotyped as "absolute bonkers shopoholics in the January sales" by the tabloids they're generally respected and welcomed here.

There's a lot of hatred of Eastern Europeans in the UK at the moment, because of supposedly lax immigration policies and the view that they stealing all the low paid jobs.

Honestly, I think it's the same story almost anywhere you go. Once a country reaches a certain level of development, these issues always arise. But they get overplayed more than it actually causes problems.

[zzm9980]

I'm still not convinced :p If you've lived in London you'll see there is a lot of stereotyping of races and sometimes hatred. Ever heard of the EDL? I bet SG doesn't have anything that bad, the government wouldn't allow it like they do here.

London has plenty of Chinese people but other than getting stereotyped as "absolute bonkers shopoholics in the January sales" by the tabloids they're generally respected and welcomed here.

There's a lot of hatred of Eastern Europeans in the UK at the moment, because of supposedly lax immigration policies and the view that they stealing all the low paid jobs.

Honestly, I think it's the same story almost anywhere you go. Once a country reaches a certain level of development, these issues always arise. But they get overplayed more than it actually causes problems.

Well I'm glad you're over there in the UK to explain it to us. You as an observer of anti-foreigner sentiment in your home country (not the foreigner yourself) are obviously more qualified than all of us here in Singapore as foreigners to understand the situation here. Especially since Singaporean and British culture are so damn similar.

Are you here to ask questions, or just tell us you're on your way so Singapore and how sure you are of your decision?

Oh one more thing I completely missed from your first post:

I'm a Londoner so the Singapore hustle and bustle really appeals to me. Can't help it!

Singapore has almost no 'hustle and bustle' like London, or any other major (western or East Asian) city. Maybe 1/100th the area of London for 'that type' of urban interaction. It's more like a perfectly designed (from a planning perspective) small downtown core surrounded by suburban sub divisions and malls.

[zzm9980]

Here, I couldn't find a better way to do this, but since you haven't been here you probably can't appreciate how truly small Singapore is.

This first image is the entire nation of Singapore overlayed on the UK, to scale. Note that this overlay includes a very large amount of restricted land, water, and neighboring islands that the public can't actually even travel to!



The second map I drew a rough outline around the "hustling and bustling" area of Singapore, with an exact-to-scale copy of that overlay over London. Do note almost anything outside of the outline for Singapore will be residential public housing estates, shopping malls, and that's about it. Almost anything a westerner would associate with "hustling and bustling" will mostly fall within that outline. A good portion of whats in that outline is pretty dead too, and includes tourist Chinatown. Also note that what you see of Singapore in that map is 30-40% of the the actual country that you'd regularly see. Anything outside the map (and a lot in it) is just more and more identical housing estates.



So yes, the entire CBD, and a big portion of the nightlife, etc, of Singapore is in an area the size of Regent's Park.

[nbe]

I'm still not convinced :p If you've lived in London you'll see there is a lot of stereotyping of races and sometimes hatred. Ever heard of the EDL? I bet SG doesn't have anything that bad, the government wouldn't allow it like they do here.

London has plenty of Chinese people but other than getting stereotyped as "absolute bonkers shopoholics in the January sales" by the tabloids they're generally respected and welcomed here.

There's a lot of hatred of Eastern Europeans in the UK at the moment, because of supposedly lax immigration policies and the view that they stealing all the low paid jobs.

Honestly, I think it's the same story almost anywhere you go. Once a country reaches a certain level of development, these issues always arise. But they get overplayed more than it actually causes problems.

Well I'm glad you're over there in the UK to explain it to us. You as an observer of anti-foreigner sentiment in your home country (not the foreigner yourself) are obviously more qualified than all of us here in Singapore as foreigners to understand the situation here. Especially since Singaporean and British culture are so damn similar.

Are you here to ask questions, or just tell us you're on your way so Singapore and how sure you are of your decision?

Oh one more thing I completely missed from your first post:

I'm a Londoner so the Singapore hustle and bustle really appeals to me. Can't help it!

Singapore has almost no 'hustle and bustle' like London, or any other major (western or East Asian) city. Maybe 1/100th the area of London for 'that type' of urban interaction. It's more like a perfectly designed (from a planning perspective) small downtown core surrounded by suburban sub divisions and malls.

You seem intent on turning this thread into an argument. I am asking questions but such has been the levels of negativity I am having to temper them by trying to find similarities with what I already know. That's only normal.

Observation: You guys all seem to hate living there.

[zzm9980]

You seem intent on turning this thread into an argument. I am asking questions but such has been the levels of negativity I am having to temper them by trying to find similarities with what I already know. That's only normal.

Observation: You guys all seem to hate living there.

Guy who has never lived here asks a bunch of people that do live here some questions. We reply, and guy who hasn't lived here continues to disagree, so we continue to support our point. That's probably technically an argument, but the whole thing is still constructive IMO.

I don't hate living here, but I'm not particularly a fan after a few years (indeed after 3-5 months). I'll be honest with you, I made a similar mistake to you. I wanted/needed to live in Asia. I spent a ton of time in China and Hong Kong, and visited Singapore a few times for 1-3 days each. I *thought* I knew Singapore well enough, but I was wrong. And that was with exposure and experience. Knowing everything I know now, would I have made the same decision? Maybe. But I would have been much better prepared and increased my requirements (compensation)

Fwiw, *My* personal thought of what Singapore would be like before I moved here was "Just like Hong Kong, but hot all year round and no pretty mountains." (HK has some seasons and I like mountains. Completely wrong. About the only things the two places have in common are nice airports and a lot of Chinese stacked high into the sky in concrete boxes.
Oh, and we took our 'Wan Chai', stacked it up, and put it into a shopping mall called Orchard Towers.

[Beeroclock]

Interesting map overlay ZZM! I never thought of it like that before.

[Wd40]

Interesting map overlay ZZM! I never thought of it like that before.

+1. Good work there ZZM!

[Strong Eagle]

Maps were a cool idea, ZZM. I did one for Houston as well, and then, just for fun, laid Singapore inside M25, with lots of room to spare. I've left these as links because I think they will blow up the forum due to size.

http://herberts.org/miscdocs/londsing.jpg

Looks like Dartford is just southeast of Bedok

And Houston

http://herberts.org/miscdocs/singhou.jpg

[singapore eagle]

zzm9980 is being way too negative here.

I'm a Londoner who's been living in Singapore for five years now. I had a 'what have I got to lose'/'I can always go back home if it doesn't work out' mentality when I arrived, and as I write I'm about to become a permanent resident. Yes, Singapore has its faults, and no, Singapore is not like Vietnam, but it's still somewhere new and different that will give you lots of new experiences (at least in the short term).

The anti-foreigner thing is a complete red-herring if you're a white westerner, in my opinion. Especially if you're in a senior position at work.

And I would say it's as easy as anywhere else to make friends with both expats and locals if you make the effort.

I say go for it. You'll only know what the authorities will make of the employment pass application if/when you put it in.

[GSM8]

Grass might be greener on the other side of the fence. But their water bill will also be higher, my friend

Every place has its own variety of BS to deal with