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Do you agree:China and America-Rising Dragon, Bleeding Eagle

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Wind In My Hair
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Postby Wind In My Hair » Fri, 03 Jun 2011 10:24 pm

Strong Eagle wrote:The man who has not made enemies has never stood up for positions he believes.

I concede this point, at least where you're concerned :)

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Postby earthfriendly » Sat, 04 Jun 2011 12:40 am

Wind In My Hair wrote:
x9200 wrote:Could be interesting to see it. I am not that sure how interesting would be to participate :)

Perhaps less interesting, but more meaningful. Less confrontational criticism, less defensiveness, hence more willingness to listen, increased understanding, and ultimately world peace. We can dream, can't we? :)


I think that's how war get started. It is always about what the other person should do for me, do things my way, agree with my opinion, use the style of communication that I approve of. Everything starts from me, not the other person. It is up to me to build up the strength and values from within to withstand the challenges of life. In a similar vein of thoughts, "ask not what your country can do for you- ask what you can do for your country".

My mom is extremely sensitive who put too much weight on what other people do and say to her. "I saw xyz mother, I smiled at her but she didn't and just stared at me " sad, sad, sob.sob. In the beginning I tried to assuage her hurt and ego, sayang, sayang. But it soon became a recurring theme. Eventually, I told her to get a grip and grow up! She is close to 80 but has not changed much because there were too many enablers (my sisters) in her life preventing her from growing. Mom really has more power and control over her life than she really knows. She can re-wire her thinking rather than let the gadzillion people out there dictate her happiness.

Plus who knows why xyz mom does not smile? Maybe she has health issues preventing her from using her smiling muscle? Or she wants to be like Kim Bassinger? KB's secret to her beauty is she does not smile so as to prevent laugh lines. That's what I heard not sure if it is true. "Mom, stop reading too much into every situation, you are wearing me out!"

The world is not one dimensional. It takes all kind of personalities to make the world. And personalities are greatly controlled by the brain and it is very hard to change the working of the brains. And there are parents like Amy Chua who thought they can mould the kids to their liking but read an article pointing out nature plays a critical part in personality formation. And parents do not need to over-fret over every detail of the kids' upbringing. Hence we see all the different communcation style in this forum. Some have strong opnions while others won't even bother to offer an opinion. Each of us is born with a unique personality controlled by a unique brain. Each person is unique. It is nature.

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Postby x9200 » Sat, 04 Jun 2011 11:35 am

Wind In My Hair wrote:
x9200 wrote:Could be interesting to see it. I am not that sure how interesting would be to participate :)

Perhaps less interesting, but more meaningful. Less confrontational criticism, less defensiveness, hence more willingness to listen, increased understanding, and ultimately world peace. We can dream, can't we? :)

Yes and this is exactly what it is. I also don't really think this is in our nature so the question is, is it really possible even on purely theoretical ground? What I mean, if suddenly all people started to behave as told by Confucius (or any other well accepted philosopher or philosophical system) will the humanity as a biological specie survive :)

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Postby Wind In My Hair » Sat, 04 Jun 2011 12:24 pm

x9200 wrote:Yes and this is exactly what it is. I also don't really think this is in our nature so the question is, is it really possible even on purely theoretical ground? What I mean, if suddenly all people started to behave as told by Confucius (or any other well accepted philosopher or philosophical system) will the humanity as a biological specie survive :)

I don't know about humanity, but if you are right then this forum is surely destined for a long life given how much we argue :D

Seriously, your argument cuts both ways though. What does it mean if we only behaved as taught by Socrates?

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Postby x9200 » Sat, 04 Jun 2011 1:49 pm

Wind In My Hair wrote:
x9200 wrote:Yes and this is exactly what it is. I also don't really think this is in our nature so the question is, is it really possible even on purely theoretical ground? What I mean, if suddenly all people started to behave as told by Confucius (or any other well accepted philosopher or philosophical system) will the humanity as a biological specie survive :)

I don't know about humanity, but if you are right then this forum is surely destined for a long life given how much we argue :D

Seriously, your argument cuts both ways though. What does it mean if we only behaved as taught by Socrates?

I do not know too much about Socrates to try to prove my point but on more general ground it is pretty common in many philosophical systems to condemn aggression or confrontational behavior of any kind but such behavior seems crucial just to survive in more or less physical environment. Another example. Many systems tell you to avoid sex or sexual desire if it does not lead to procreation. Generally more you abstain from sex more holy you are. Also you should do fasting forget about material life and start meditating. What if everybody would do like this? :)

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Postby Wind In My Hair » Sat, 04 Jun 2011 2:16 pm

x9200 wrote:I do not know too much about Socrates to try to prove my point but on more general ground it is pretty common in many philosophical systems to condemn aggression or confrontational behavior of any kind but such behavior seems crucial just to survive in more or less physical environment.

Interesting you should mention a physical environment. I was just reading about the failure of antibiotics to treat the latest strain of E Coli. Western medicine is combative, aiming to destroy pathogens directly. It also tends to view the body as made up of different components, hence specialisations. Eastern medicine is more holistic and aims to strengthen the immune system. Even Johns Hopkins has started to explore the viability of traditional chinese medicine (TCM). I guess there is no right or wrong and it's good to learn from all the approaches.

x9200 wrote:Another example. Many systems tell you to avoid sex or sexual desire if it does not lead to procreation. Generally more you abstain from sex more holy you are. Also you should do fasting forget about material life and start meditating. What if everybody would do like this? :)

No, you are NOT going to lure me into talking about sex :P

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Postby x9200 » Sat, 04 Jun 2011 5:38 pm

Wind In My Hair wrote:Interesting you should mention a physical environment. I was just reading about the failure of antibiotics to treat the latest strain of E Coli. Western


It happens. Not necessarily the system's fault. Could be just a natural mutation not a resistance induced by a long exposure to the antibiotics.

Wind In My Hair wrote:Eastern medicine is more holistic and aims to strengthen the immune system. Even Johns Hopkins has started to explore the viability of traditional chinese medicine (TCM). I guess there is no right or wrong and it's good to learn from all the approaches.


Methinks it makes great sense to combine the two.

Wind In My Hair wrote:
x9200 wrote:Another example. Many systems tell you to avoid sex or sexual desire if it does not lead to procreation. Generally more you abstain from sex more holy you are. Also you should do fasting forget about material life and start meditating. What if everybody would do like this? :)

No, you are NOT going to lure me into talking about sex :P


Image

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Postby ksl » Sun, 05 Jun 2011 12:12 am

Earthfriendly:Each of us is born with a unique personality controlled by a unique brain. Each person is unique. It is nature.
Thank god for that, I was beginning to worry :shock:

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Postby JR8 » Mon, 06 Jun 2011 5:51 pm

X9:
I'm having some problems too. I think the Confucian debate hardly applicable to this sort of discussion we typically take part in (not only here). My crippled working understanding of such discussion is to have it as per normal but to use no confrontational or critical remarks (unless you are morally perfect or close to it).

Well that’s clearly a load of b*ll*cks isn’t it ';)
Seriously though it does seem to boil down to ego and face.


WIMH:
X9200's understanding is closest to what I would consider a constructive rather than critical discussion. The tone would not be "Here's what you're doing wrong" but rather "This is my experience and this is what I tried to do and it worked well or it didn't work because..."

It seems cooperative and supportive, rather effeminate perhaps? Which is funny considering how to my western eyes the Chinese come over as very dog-eat-dog. Polite discussion demanded from people who often seem to behave impolitely, one wonders where the disconnect is.
(I appreciate that you don’t like the term ‘Confucianist debate’, even if it only refers broadly to an an approach. But I am a little concerned that using Constructive and Critical might suggest they are mutually exclusive...)


Anyway, this is just the beginning of an incomplete thought I'm trying to formulate but it's still not entirely clear to me either. I'm just wondering why this pattern recurs so consistently and whether there is a way to prevent new posters from frequently being blown off the forum.

If you don’t quite get it, what hope have we? Good luck writing the cultural Rosetta Stone!

Nak:
If you're new and you're already antagonistic, you're sorta asking for it.

+1.
That’s the elephant in the room. The dynamics of web communities.


KSL:
The important thing is not to be judgemental on either side east or west, has disturbance, is wasted energy, ideally one joins with the flow and avoids all the political drama, has one cannot go about changing the world.

Don’t agree, you can change the world. Several middle-east countries have or are en route to changing ‘their worlds’. SGns made a pretty good stab at doing the same quite recently too. There’s a thought, is democracy (voting etc) ‘confrontational’?

WIMH:
Perhaps less interesting, but more meaningful. Less confrontational criticism, less defensiveness, hence more willingness to listen, increased understanding, and ultimately world peace. We can dream, can't we?

‘The ladies constructive movement for turning pubs into kopitiams’. Don’t see it working myself.

I don't know about humanity, but if you are right then this forum is surely destined for a long life given how much we argue.

Your ‘argue’ is my ‘discuss’ :)

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Re: Do you agree:China and America-Rising Dragon, Bleeding E

Postby Manthink » Tue, 07 Jun 2011 6:09 pm

BillyB wrote:
Manthink wrote:
JayCee wrote:I've not read such a load of nationalistic, propaganda horsesh*t in a long time. Just to pick out a few diamonds:

Btw I'm not American and I'm marrying a girl from China soon, and even she can see through the bullsh*t written in this article


Congratulation on your impending marriage.

About your questions on facts about China try this link http://www.gapminder.org

It is run by Hans Rosling with collaboration with Google.
A very powerful visualization tool that may answer some of the questions you had posted about China and the world as seen from statistical POV gathered in the last 200 hundreds years.

Who's Hans Rosling?
Here is his intro during his 2009 TED speech in India. Notice him sharing how his short formative years in India changed his perception forever.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiK5-oAaeUs
Image

I hope I am not being vague on the above.   :) 


Here's something for you to ponder:
http://www.transparency.org/policy_rese ... 10/results


I did "ponder" over this site and is pretty surprised that this so-called Corruption Perceptions Index actually placed China (slightly) ahead of the most populous democracy in the world? :-k

But again, we are talking about "perceptions" here, aren't we?

Hence, I still prefer the surgical data analysis, like http://www.gapminder.org , which help reduce, if not eliminate, bias & prejudice when culture/religon/race/language/politics/ideology differences comes into play.

Gapminder's slogan "...for a fact-based World View" is there for good reason.

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Postby ksl » Tue, 07 Jun 2011 7:37 pm

JR:KSL:
The important thing is not to be judgemental on either side east or west, has disturbance, is wasted energy, ideally one joins with the flow and avoids all the political drama, has one cannot go about changing the world.

Don’t agree, you can change the world. Several middle-east countries have or are en route to changing ‘their worlds’. SGns made a pretty good stab at doing the same quite recently too. There’s a thought, is democracy (voting etc) ‘confrontational’?


My apologies my bad! I was being more specific from my own point of view, as I have better things to do than indulge myself. But yes you are right, you can actually spend a life time changing politics, has we often read about the unfortunate people that do get locked away.

So i guess it depends a great deal on ones inner feelings to help out or th e motivation for the job though their is a large difference between voting and changing the world of politics, after all voting is the only right thing to do. Especially if you want it to look democratic.

We should all learn by past experiences too don't you think! Singapore will get change that I'm sure of, the new delegates will get a nice piece of the action and brought into line, on how top play the game...don't rock the boat, otherwise you may fall over.

The people voted in have been watched for years and years, so it's a matter of how much change are you wanting and how much you are going to get, a more important factor is to be seen as democratic on the world stage.

There was a time I had interest with local MP's, and understand their true intentions to make a difference, though I am old enough to realise that, there comes a point in an MP's life, where he must choose, which side he is really on.


The peoples or The House. I hear words from the horses mouth in parliament, highly classified stuff, though they are attempting to clean up the public image by jailing a few! Now the choice is who is the better the crook or the criminal :)

MP's don't rock the boat, otherwise they fall over, it's called toeing the line, keep the constituents happy, but don't get any big ideas that you can change history, if anyone are experts in politics it's the British, and i can imagine that Singapore PAP have learnt a great deal over the last 50 odd years, to vet any threat at all on this Island.

Singapore LKY had excellent teachers and the little red dot, is far too important for significant change, of course give people a little, it's give and take and the image does need a polish.

So yes i agree change is possible. Though my point of view is from my heart, I'm sad and disheartened with politics from my own Country, that I have switched off. I admire Singapore authority, it can ignore all the worlds pleas of don't hang people, don't cane people, it is a symbol all Countries envy today, but for some stupid humanitarian reason, most politicians have made a name out of humanity, human rights, and signed us away to social disaster, allowing crime to be profitable, allowing juveniles delinquency, and total disorder.

I'm zapped out with politics. NO FAITH!

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Postby JR8 » Tue, 07 Jun 2011 8:18 pm

ksl wrote:I admire Singapore authority, it can ignore all the worlds pleas of don't hang people, don't cane people, it is a symbol all Countries envy today, but for some stupid humanitarian reason, most politicians have made a name out of humanity, human rights, and signed us away to social disaster, allowing crime to be profitable, allowing juveniles delinquency, and total disorder.

I'm zapped out with politics. NO FAITH!


I'm zapped out too. Look at the EU, it is not a democracy, it is a tyranny, an unaccountable bureaucracy. That's why the people are not permitted to vote on it.

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Postby Wind In My Hair » Wed, 08 Jun 2011 1:13 am

JR8 wrote:Your ‘argue’ is my ‘discuss’ :)

I always knew you couldn't spell :P

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Postby JR8 » Wed, 08 Jun 2011 1:57 am

Wind In My Hair wrote:
JR8 wrote:Your ‘argue’ is my ‘discuss’ :)

I always knew you couldn't spell :P


Que? Are you alright dear?

I've always said my spelling and grammar are awful... there are only so many times I can pre-emptively apologise for the failings of my hideous socialist education.

Meanwhile, I do continue to try and liberate myself from the vermin like mantle of the education that was inflicted upon me [as one naturally is inclined to do].

Onwards ho!
:)

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Postby Barri » Fri, 05 Aug 2011 1:52 am

I think that the discussion turned towards morals, values, culture and such while it doesn't seem necessary to me.

Through history there is a economic conjunction going from one continent to another. The US was the recipient from that flow and now the flow is moving towards Asia and who knows maybe after a century Africa get's a chance.

Although people seem to combine that flow to "the result of hard work", "good economics", "higher moral values" it is usually far more complex and connected with many variables mostly not at all connected with one populations "supremacy" over another population.


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