Filial Piety Revisited

[Eau2011]

Phew, such gross vitriol and what a history from where it brewed. I wouldn't waste my time getting down to this level. Your post to this OP is unacceptable scandal mongering. Try the jokes and rubbish section.

Again, your level, err...I don't want to insult anybody, not like you, showing your discrimination to Malaysian girls.

[Eau2011]

@JR 8,

What is "masquerader Rogue Girl from the Malaysian Forum" which Auntie Anne mentioned?

Does a native-born British know about this term if he/she has never lived in SG or Southeast Asia?

Or a typical slang from Singaporean to show their condescending attitude?

That is a good question. I believe the insinuation is that you have come to this forum from another and that you are in fact Malaysian, and not Chinese as you have said.

I presume that this is why the OP believes you are 'against her', as she cannot accept that someone 100* more Chinese than she'll ever be might be. Ergo [therefore] by definition you must be some non-Chinese, Chinese hating foreigner.

Hey, I was accused of being an 'anti-Chinese agent', so no big deal. There just seems to be some kind of paranoia going on that's all. Sometimes there is no point trying to make sense of something, where none exists

Best wishes for a nice day Eau!

JR8, thanks for the explanation!

I almost missed Nak's applause from yesterday. Yeah, why should I get mad yesterday, if I have to face a paranoia, I just have to keep cool and laugh at it.

[JR8]

A pleasure

p.s. I find posting .jpg's quite therapeutic.

[sundaymorningstaple]

MOM?!?

[earthfriendly]

I don't read much Chinese. Too difficult lah. I read The Analects of Confucius in English comics. Purchased in SG from Popular bookstore.

The disciple Ziyou asked about filial piety. Confucius said "Nowadays what people mean by filial virtue is merely providing for one's parents; but dogs and horses are also provided for....So without adding respect for one's parents, what is the difference?"

And forceful studying is not condoned either. Hello Amy Chu? "The one who merely knows the value of study is not so good as the one who takes and interest in studying. The one who takes an interest in studying is not as good as the one who delights in studying."

[ksl]

I don't read much Chinese. Too difficult lah. I read The Analects of Confucius in English comics. Purchased in SG from Popular bookstore.

The disciple Ziyou asked about filial piety. Confucius said "Nowadays what people mean by filial virtue is merely providing for one's parents; but dogs and horses are also provided for....So without adding respect for one's parents, what is the difference?"

And forceful studying is not condoned either. Hello Amy Chu? "The one who merely knows the value of study is not so good as the one who takes and interest in studying. The one who takes an interest in studying is not as good as the one who delights in studying."

Exactly

[tyianchang]

I don't read much Chinese. Too difficult lah. I read The Analects of Confucius in English comics. Purchased in SG from Popular bookstore.

The disciple Ziyou asked about filial piety. Confucius said "Nowadays what people mean by filial virtue is merely providing for one's parents; but dogs and horses are also provided for....So without adding respect for one's parents, what is the difference?"

And forceful studying is not condoned either. Hello Amy Chu? "The one who merely knows the value of study is not so good as the one who takes and interest in studying. The one who takes an interest in studying is not as good as the one who delights in studying."

It goes without saying Confucius is all about respect except for those who need to prove they're more right than others.
Words of wisdom that do not issue from the heart are, at best, from the surface.
If you're directing your syllogism at Amy Chua, that's nothing to do with me unless you are implying.
Forced learning is a bullying tactic, children learn through love and adults learn from experience. Some have stereotyped fixations which one can't blame them for, living in a celebrity culture as they do.
Those who delight in studying can learn for life, if they learn anything other than self-pleasure.
Even those born with gifts only have the potential. The only learning registers when it goes beyond the ego, otherwise, it's only a wrap up that swells.

[tyianchang]

I don't read much Chinese. Too difficult lah. I read The Analects of Confucius in English comics. Purchased in SG from Popular bookstore.

The disciple Ziyou asked about filial piety. Confucius said "Nowadays what people mean by filial virtue is merely providing for one's parents; but dogs and horses are also provided for....So without adding respect for one's parents, what is the difference?"

And forceful studying is not condoned either. Hello Amy Chu? "The one who merely knows the value of study is not so good as the one who takes and interest in studying. The one who takes an interest in studying is not as good as the one who delights in studying."

The difference is duty. Some people do their duty as a course of the respect they have learnt from childhood. Without understanding duty or responsibility to others, what's the point in learning? Learning to win is all too common and does not inculcate real values.
Giving money as a gift to express eternal gratitude for the sacrifices parents make to give their children the best and providing for the parents are quite different on the scale of respect. Both are equally virtuous.
In fact, it can be said that to give without respect other than duty is even more virtuous espcially if the autocratic parents ( not animals ) never give way.

[Strong Eagle]

I don't read much Chinese. Too difficult lah. I read The Analects of Confucius in English comics. Purchased in SG from Popular bookstore.

The disciple Ziyou asked about filial piety. Confucius said "Nowadays what people mean by filial virtue is merely providing for one's parents; but dogs and horses are also provided for....So without adding respect for one's parents, what is the difference?"

And forceful studying is not condoned either. Hello Amy Chu? "The one who merely knows the value of study is not so good as the one who takes and interest in studying. The one who takes an interest in studying is not as good as the one who delights in studying."

The difference is duty. Some people do their duty as a course of the respect they have learnt from childhood. Without understanding duty or responsibility to others, what's the point in learning? Learning to win is all too common and does not inculcate real values.
Giving money as a gift to express eternal gratitude for the sacrifices parents make to give their children the best and providing for the parents are quite different on the scale of respect. Both are equally virtuous.
In fact, it can be said that to give without respect other than duty is even more virtuous espcially if the autocratic parents ( not animals ) never give way.

Why is this an exclusively Chinese issue? As I recall, the ten commandments in the Christian bible (which are actually a lot more, depending where you look) says, "Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you."

So, what's the difference?

[Wind In My Hair]

Why is this an exclusively Chinese issue? As I recall, the ten commandments in the Christian bible (which are actually a lot more, depending where you look) says, "Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you."

So, what's the difference?

SE, my post is not directed at you, but a general comment on this thread. Just that your post is one I find worth responding to

I am a Chinese cradle Catholic, and am therefore familiar with both the Christian concept of honoring parents and the Confucian concept of filial piety. I have never once used the concepts inter-changeably as to me they are different. Tyianchang is actually correct that piety has a much stronger element of duty, even obligation, than honor or respect. And not just the money aspect.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, it's hard to explain the difference in English as any English words I use will be words the "West" knows and therefore a Westerner will say "See we have it too". Something gets lost in translation. It's like saying "panache" is the same as "flair". It is, but it isn't. It's different enough for the English language to import the French word to say what all the English words can't. If 'honor' and 'respect' were enough to explain 'filial piety', then the latter term wouldn't even be necessary.

What I don't understand is why people can't just accept that filial piety is different from honor / respect. As has been pointed out, piety isn't all-wonderful. It weighs heavily sometimes, in a way that honor / respect doesn't. Many have wished themselves free of the burden of piety, whereas honor / respect is not something people wish away. It's okay to not live with piety. It doesn't make the culture that doesn't practise it inferior. I'm tempted to say this thread almost smacks of kiasu-ism, as in "You have it, we must have it too!"

Sorry for the long post. And now... let the arrows fly!

[ev-disinfection]

Why is this an exclusively Chinese issue? As I recall, the ten commandments in the Christian bible (which are actually a lot more, depending where you look) says, "Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you."

So, what's the difference?

SE, my post is not directed at you, but a general comment on this thread. Just that your post is one I find worth responding to

I am a Chinese cradle Catholic, and am therefore familiar with both the Christian concept of honoring parents and the Confucian concept of filial piety. I have never once used the concepts inter-changeably as to me they are different. Tyianchang is actually correct that piety has a much stronger element of duty, even obligation, than honor or respect. And not just the money aspect.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, it's hard to explain the difference in English as any English words I use will be words the "West" knows and therefore a Westerner will say "See we have it too". Something gets lost in translation. It's like saying "panache" is the same as "flair". It is, but it isn't. It's different enough for the English language to import the French word to say what all the English words can't. If 'honor' and 'respect' were enough to explain 'filial piety', then the latter term wouldn't even be necessary.

What I don't understand is why people can't just accept that filial piety is different from honor / respect. As has been pointed out, piety isn't all-wonderful. It weighs heavily sometimes, in a way that honor / respect doesn't. Many have wished themselves free of the burden of piety, whereas honor / respect is not something people wish away. It's okay to not live with piety. It doesn't make the culture that doesn't practise it inferior. I'm tempted to say this thread almost smacks of kiasu-ism, as in "You have it, we must have it too!"

Sorry for the long post. And now... let the arrows fly!

Would not have said it better myself, fully agree...

[ksl]

Also the reason why I don't question my wife's feelings on too much, but except her wishes and demands that family come first, also the reason why I remain in Singapore and Asia actually, even though we planned to move to UK in 2004.
My commitment for the hand of my father in laws daughter, was that i would remain at least 2 years in Taiwan and embrace Chinese culture, I stayed in fact 4 years and planned to return to UK, as Denmark would have been a language barrier for my wife.
I left to return to Denmark, and moved to UK, my wife was to join me at a later date, however things changed for family.

Happenings just changed and family needed help, not necessary direct help from me, but a fathers wish, to pull together as a family and help to solve a problem in Singapore.

I of course didn't get in the way of these requests, as I knew how important it was for family, though not for me personally.

It cannot be explained in our western societies, it's culture that goes very very deep with learning, so I embrace it, as a duty of part of the family, that the whole needs us.

After my father in law passed away in 2009 the eldest son takes over, sadly in February 2011 also a younger brother passed away too.

Families are left very vulnerable with bread winners gone, there is education of youngsters and 2 widows, a grandma, and a sister in law, that needs all our support as a family financially as well as emotionally.

It is a joint effort and duty that the family remains strong, with the eldest inheriting the position of rightful place, for the family to remain strong and the values of filial piety to be passed on, it is a sacrifice of a true and unique nature that we live for family only and not ourselves.

Giving up one own wishes is actually a must, hence that i am a follower of tradition, rather than one that splits the family. Of course we do have wishes and maybe one day they will mature into something good too, hence also our reason for not relying on a maid believe it or not.

Though that comes from me, as I explain to my wife, that my daughter needs to learn also, that life is never that easy, she needs to grow with respect and look after her mother, she our daughter will have traditional values of the Taiwanese Chinese, in which burial rights are very different than Singaporean Chinese for example, these traditions cannot be dropped because we are in Singapore, it's about identities of ethnic culture, which vary only slightly.

Family come first every time, and materialism does actually fall further down the ladder and sacrifices are made to build a closer and stronger family for the good of everyone.

Buddhism may not be fully understood by everyone, just like religions are not fully understood by everyone, rituals are all part of the identity and beliefs in filial piety are part of the yin & yang of life and good fortune.

Harmony is the most important factor of all families, without it the balance would be disturbed forever. Honor & Respect is just that, filial piety is about sacrifice for the better good of family traditions so we look after one and each other no matter how big the family is.

What we plan for is expansion, but the family remains a whole, what we create is the families which includes both sides, the unit grows stronger and works for one goal, the centre piece of a one unit.

In business the art of war by Sun Tzu is also a very important book, along with the rituals of Feng shui before moving into property , and Lion Dancing From the fourth day to the fifteenth of the Chinese New Year, Though dances vary from Taiwan, superstition may also be very strong, that you wouldn't believe how powerful the effects can be to those that follow, it is everything to family.

Long rant I know, but the reason why I stay neutral, is because it takes time to earn those feelings in the depths of ones heart.

After all I am European and I know I could have a much more less stressful life lying on an Island in a some what more acceptable climate No doubt I will live the rest of my days here supporting what I love most, my Chinese wife, daughter and Singapore/Taiwanese family, which has been relatively easy for me to adapt, at the surprise of many, that thought it wouldn't go the distance.

[x9200]

What I don't understand is why people can't just accept that filial piety is different from honor / respect. As has been pointed out, piety isn't all-wonderful. It weighs heavily sometimes, in a way that honor / respect doesn't. Many have wished themselves free of the burden of piety, whereas honor / respect is not something people wish away. It's okay to not live with piety. It doesn't make the culture that doesn't practise it inferior. I'm tempted to say this thread almost smacks of kiasu-ism, as in "You have it, we must have it too!"

Sorry for the long post. And now... let the arrows fly!

No, no arrows. As often your post is an island of sanity in the raging chaos of the battle field
The problem is this thread appears to be made up just to antagonize the two cultures and this is also probably the reason for this kiasuism.
I am not sure if I fully understand FP but it looks like it contains much stronger element of being unconditionally submissive what is not that foreign to the Western or Christian culture but rather obsolete nowadays.

[tyianchang]

I don't read much Chinese. Too difficult lah. I read The Analects of Confucius in English comics. Purchased in SG from Popular bookstore.

The disciple Ziyou asked about filial piety. Confucius said "Nowadays what people mean by filial virtue is merely providing for one's parents; but dogs and horses are also provided for....So without adding respect for one's parents, what is the difference?"

And forceful studying is not condoned either. Hello Amy Chu? "The one who merely knows the value of study is not so good as the one who takes and interest in studying. The one who takes an interest in studying is not as good as the one who delights in studying."

The difference is duty. Some people do their duty as a course of the respect they have learnt from childhood. Without understanding duty or responsibility to others, what's the point in learning? Learning to win is all too common and does not inculcate real values.
Giving money as a gift to express eternal gratitude for the sacrifices parents make to give their children the best and providing for the parents are quite different on the scale of respect. Both are equally virtuous.
In fact, it can be said that to give without respect other than duty is even more virtuous espcially if the autocratic parents ( not animals ) never give way.

Why is this an exclusively Chinese issue? As I recall, the ten commandments in the Christian bible (which are actually a lot more, depending where you look) says, "Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you."

So, what's the difference?

The terminology FP is exclusively Chinese but the issues are open to discussion, SE. The difference as above quoted, is in the understanding of one's duty, and WIMH has explained it so well so I'll avoid repeating. FP is so ingrained in Chinese upbringing that we understand the isssues involved in it tacitly, as kls pointed out. We're not taught FP but instinctively understand what's expected of us. That's in my time though I hear the MOE is introducing FP into schools nowadays.
One aspect of FP involves the mannerism of speech. As a child, I wouldn't refer to what my grandma said with the pronoun "She said," when making a referene to her but it would be considered more polite to say,'Grandma said." Deference and acknowledgement as well as respectfulness in tone and words at all times to our seniors are de rigeur in Chinese culture. We extend the way we speak to our parents, extended family, friends and others in society. That is classic FP in context.

I believe such a regard in the manner of speaking is similar in Western homes where the culture is genteel, so this is an area that shares a similarity.

Using your quotation above, parents are honoured in different ways in FP. Children with FP treat their parents almost like gods and they will be when their parents pass from the material to the spiritual realm. There's ancestor worshipping for instance, where pictures of parents are placed in front of Honour inscripted tablets and the descendents burn incense to remember and pray for their parents' souls. FP is not a religion but a tradition of home culture.

It's regarded as a socio-psychological framework for behaviour with the individual as the smallest unit within the family unit and is based on the view that the whole of society is made up of family units. Harmony in the family creates harmony in the society. That is the sum in brief of Confucius' teachings. Obedience underpins the whole concept and that's where I was hoping for differentiations and a good discussion.

If differences between Chinese and Western culture are to be emphasised, they fall mainly in the area of cross-cultural pragmatics, meaning what's regarded as polite in one culture, is deemed the opposite in another. An example of this is that it's polite in Chinese culture to ask about family and children, even after a short introduction to a new friend whereas, it's considered rude, and an intrusion into one's privacy in British culture for example.

[earthfriendly]

I don't read much Chinese. Too difficult lah. I read The Analects of Confucius in English comics. Purchased in SG from Popular bookstore.

The disciple Ziyou asked about filial piety. Confucius said "Nowadays what people mean by filial virtue is merely providing for one's parents; but dogs and horses are also provided for....So without adding respect for one's parents, what is the difference?"

And forceful studying is not condoned either. Hello Amy Chu? "The one who merely knows the value of study is not so good as the one who takes and interest in studying. The one who takes an interest in studying is not as good as the one who delights in studying."

The difference is duty. Some people do their duty as a course of the respect they have learnt from childhood. Without understanding duty or responsibility to others, what's the point in learning? Learning to win is all too common and does not inculcate real values.
Giving money as a gift to express eternal gratitude for the sacrifices parents make to give their children the best and providing for the parents are quite different on the scale of respect. Both are equally virtuous.
In fact, it can be said that to give without respect other than duty is even more virtuous espcially if the autocratic parents ( not animals ) never give way.

Why is this an exclusively Chinese issue? As I recall, the ten commandments in the Christian bible (which are actually a lot more, depending where you look) says, "Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you."

So, what's the difference?

It is not limited to Chinese. Respect for parents is a universal value but practices vary between countries, cultures and each individual family. Cultural practices evolved from the unique geograhical, socio-economical and circumstantial situations each group faces. In modern SG, do people equate respect for parents and caring in terms of taking care of their financial needs by offering pocket $ ? Do they try to take time out of their busy schedule and spent it with their elders. My sister leads a very busy life but will tag her whole family to mom's on the weekend to saviour and praise her home cooking. If I were living in SG, would I do the same? Maybe not as I tend to be more into doing my own things. And I will also factor in if my kids will enjoy spending time at grandma's. I believe in freedom to choose and not be bounded in life. Always has been this way as a kid. So not all chinese think alike.

In USA where it is so spread out, a weekly visit to the grandparents may not be feasible for most people and that's where skype comes in. My parents are computer illiterat so skype is not a possibility. Different geopgrahy, different practices. I am not saying one way is better than the other. It is just different.