I am not sure you can read Arabic or not.Muslima70 wrote:
I merely wanted to point out that sometimes the mis-conceptions people have about Islam and our way of life and our beliefs is just that misconceptions...
Hi k1w1 Thanks for sharing your POV..I think you have raised some good points...k1w1 wrote:I read it all too. For me, the biggest issue of any religious discussion like this is the assumption that the fundamental teachings/beliefs of that religion are correct. (I am therefore nervous about discussing this because it's clear we have very different ideas about what is correct...)
A lot of what Muslima70 said sounds similar to old-fashioned Judeo/Christan ideologies, to be honest. Many of these ideas have now been thrown by the wayside because they are just not appropriate in modern societies anymore.
The part that really irks me about Islam is that there is an idea among many Muslims that it is liberating to tell women they can work if they want to (but they don't need a career), but their husband needs to provide for them - she can divorce him if he doesn't. A woman really only needs to keep her husband happy and raise the kids... I cannot see how any of this is liberating. To my mind, it removes responsibility from the woman and by doing so, implies she is incapable of handling it.
Pointing out that a woman has the right to an education, to own property and to not be treated with cruelty just reinforces the idea that she does not share the same level of rights as men - I'm pretty sure it is not spelled out to men that they can go to college and do not need to put up with abusive treatment.
Hi k1w1, once again thank you for the comments.k1w1 wrote:1. A huge difference between Islam and other faiths is that Muslims must follow Shariah law.
2. In most Western/democratic countries, there is separation between church/faith and state. So it matters nought what a religion claims, the law is for everyone. So no matter how sexist a religion is (and most fundamentally are - not denying that at all) it is irrelevant. Singapore gets around this by having Shariah courts for Muslims.
3. There is widespread debate in many Christian and Jewish faiths about the sexist way that women are regarded. There have been changes in many denominations and while far from perfect, change has occurred and is still occurring. For instance, women can be ministers or rabbis now. It is no longer part of Christian wedding vows for women to "love, honour and obey" her husband. Muslim women are still not allowed to pray in the same area as men in a mosque.
It is alarming to me that laws are based on religious texts - and their appropriateness then never debated or critically examined... How appropriate is the section of the Koran that stipulates that a man can hit his wife is she gets out of line? Or the part that justifies women only inheriting half of what her brothers inherit? Why there is no such thing as rape when it is by a woman's husband? Again, these ideas just reinforce the idea that a woman is to be looked after by a man (even belongs to him?) and therefore needs all guidance/protection to come from him... I just cannot see women's liberation in any of this.
What happens if a Muslim woman chooses not to stay home with her children? Does she have the choice not to do this? What happens if the father of those children wanted to stay home with them instead? Not allowing social change like this is incredibly sexist and does an injustice to both parents, in my opinion.
With the greatest of respect, Muslima70, many of these ideas are very outdated and really do not serve anyone but Muslim men.
Frankly, therein lies the biggest problem with Islam. Ironically it's the same problem with Catholicism. Both consider their "bible/koran" as the word of God.I think the main difference that muslims with regards to non-muslims, is that we regard the Quran as God's relevations, in his own words...
Completely agree with everything you said, SMS. I have also researched pretty much every major religion plus some of the lesser known ones (even studied some at university), but none have really sat right with me either. There is a huge difference, in my opinion, between the faults of a faith and the followers, most of whom are decent people trying to live the way they think is best. Most religions are political to some extent and definitely none are perfect or have a clean history - let's not even start with the Catholics and Protestants!sundaymorningstaple wrote:Frankly, therein lies the biggest problem with Islam. Ironically it's the same problem with Catholicism. Both consider their "bible/koran" as the word of God.I think the main difference that muslims with regards to non-muslims, is that we regard the Quran as God's relevations, in his own words...
The biggest problem with that is they both were written by mortal man, therefore the translation has to be imperfect. Mortal man is NOT capable of knowing exactly what god/allah was thinking at any given time. Therefore the whole basis of both religions are suspect to say the least. All that's being done here is the proverbial flogging of a dead horse as neither/no religion is going to admit that their religion is fallible when in actual fact, all HAVE to be as they were actually written by that most fallible of all creatures, Man.
So, while your writings are coherent and well though out, as is k1w1's, it's been done to death. Religion is a sop for the masses. It's something created for and operated by men in order to enslave large tracts of the world's population for various reasons, not all of them admirable.
I have nothing against moderate Muslims at all. In fact I worked length & breath of Indonesia from 1982 to 1994 along with a lot of time spend on the upper east coast of Malaysia. I get along fine with moderates. In fact, I can get along with any religion as I am agnostic and have been since around 1960. I have studied most of the major religions from then until around 1985. Unfortunately I was never able to accept 100% of any religion as all have obvious flaws (some have been pointed out in this thread in only one religion). Before you jump, Malaysians are mostly Sunni's and they are refusing or trying to refuse to let in any Shia. This is also the problem in Iraq isn't it. Sounds a lot like Catholics and Protestants in Ireland doesn't it.
As far as I'm concerned, this is my take on religion.....
If {insert whatever religion you fancy} makes you a better person, then that is the religion you should embrace.
Otherwise we are all or
And the narration Al-Dhahhak that 'Man is in charge of the woman commanding her to obey God. If she refuses, he has [the right] to give her a mild beating...'"Men are the managers of women for that God has preferred in bounty one of them over another, and for that they have expended of their property" (Sura al-Nisa´ 4:34)
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