Guide to NS issues

[Mad Scientist]

Deleted

[Koalabear]

The thing that scares me is that I am assumed guilty until proven innocent.
I do not blame my parents nor will I ever.
In every country the government is there to serve the people, the people are not there to serve a government. The people may serve their country through laws and through government process and procedure.

At the end of the day, my parents had to research something they knew nothing about. They filled out all required forms and there was never any indication or notification sent to anyone about the circumstances. Never once when I did visit Singapore on my Australian passport with the Country of Birth as Singapore was I informed that this would be an issue, in fact nobody here was ever informed that I was a Singaporean citizen in any way shape or form. Don't forget this is before the time of the internet too where information was readily accessible.

Life continued on for me in Australia, I was schooled right through to University, found work and had relationships here. My parents believed they had severed all ties with Singapore legally and were never informed otherwise.

So yes Singapore has protected its interests by trying to hold onto citizens to serve National Service. And I will never see my family in Singapore, or the house where my grandparents raised me again.
And yes I could go back and potentially fight or die for a country where my ties are only my family, but my life now is in Australia.

All I am asking for is an offshore appeal system where my case could be looked at as an individual and all through the process I have asked for all the information and received one or two line emails and shirks on the phone.

So I ask you? Who is this for? For the better of the people of Singapore? This whole forum almost every second topic is scared people asking if they could go back to Singapore and see relatives or what their case is about? Why would the whole forum have so many questions if they were getting answers from the government of Singapore and their agencies?

Because the government doesn't want people to go back and boast "I did this and this, avoided NS obligation and Im back for shopping". It serves as a good deterrant for people harbouring the same ideas. The rules and regulations are enacted not to be fair, but to protect the government's interests. SMS has been arguing that parents lack common sense because they underestimated the government's resolve to enforce the enlistment act.

I beg to differ though. I find that only politically astute people (like my dad and sms) know how to dissect the policy and anticipate the government's moves to avoid all their technicality traps like filing intent on renounciation.

At least you have the luxury of choice most Singaporeans do not have. Either serve to see the people you want, or ask mindef to kiss your backside. You can always ask them to visit you in JB which is what alot of people do.

Koala Bear

About NS and its renunciation , your parents if they serve the NS before like myself will know where to get those infos. It is smack right infront of the counter at CMPB. I am not sure they have removed it or not but I got those infos.

There are only two places that will answer you on NS i.e CMPB and ICA. I have boys too and they all have renounce and follow the protocol to the T. I only stumble on this forum last year after I have done for my sons five years ago. So I felt oblige to share what I learned.
It is not that hard if you look it up and read the criteria.
PArents got into trouble after the migration. As I have said before if parents who have lived in SG and serve NS before , they will know where to look it up. I think applying for OZ immigration is more daunting the NS thingey.
Most who migrated knew about this ruling , it is up to individual whether to follow the protocol or not.
You live in OZ there are those thing that OZ Gahmen did that will not please you , it is the same in SG Gahmen. I can name afew but that is not the point. You have just got to learn from others and don't make the same mistake
No one is blaming any body here and everyone is entitled to their opinion. For myself , I talk the talk and walk the talk.

Just live and let live !! Relax it is not worth to go on about what SG Gahmen did and so on . There is NOT ONE SINGLE BIT YOU CAN CHANGE.

MS(':)')

absolutely agree! there is no point complaining here. loki you have 2 options:

1) serve 2 years
2) stay in Australia

However I'd like to share my opinion if you do not mind. If you serve for the purpose of seeing your loved ones I say forget it because its not worth it.

Serving has other benefits. Not many ang mohs served in military and military experience on a resume is hard to come by. Having experienced NS, I'd say it really is the best army to serve on this planet. You will be hard pressed to find a military that puts safety first and foremost, has strong laws in place to ensure basic human rights (I once back-stabbed a warrant officer because I navigated the rules and regulations better than him and got him condemned) and on top of that let you go back home every weekend. Sure you will brush shoulders with a few bastards along the way, but knowing how to manage them with interpersonal + communication skills (or back-stabbing skills)will help you a lot in the future dealing with office politics. I found it to be pretty good business under my circumstance and decided to serve when my dad asked me to choose and learned many lessons that others without military experience will never get to learn. Even though Im overseas I do not mind going back for ICT if they sponsor me air ticket and the $400 monetary award for IPPT is just free cash.

"And yes I could go back and potentially fight or die for a country"
Frankly I don't ever see this happening this decade. Maybe when they find a 50km deep oil well under sentosa but I doubt.

Hows the job market in Australia? Serving now profits if you can add meaningful experience while the labour market is slack, and leverage your experience during the next economic cycle upturn. Do not underestimate the power of military experience on your resume. I can teach you how to do those vocational tests to get to the vocation you desire.

[loki112000]

I understand there are benefits to serving, but I don't think I would do that at this stage of my life. I am 27 now, I am planning to buy a house and start a family here in the next few years.

Australia is all I know as a country really. Even if I completed NS I would still renounce as I am proud to be an Australian. It is a country that supported me through most of my life.

Thanks for all the advice and support. I am very saddened that I will possibly not ever see Singapore again, but at the end of the day, my personal welfare is more important to me at the moment.

[sundaymorningstaple]

I understand there are benefits to serving, but I don't think I would do that at this stage of my life. I am 27 now, I am planning to buy a house and start a family here in the next few years.

So young. You will have a lot of days to rue the decision but that's your albatross.

[loki112000]

Maybe I will regret it. But lets be clear... this has never been "my" decision.

[sundaymorningstaple]

Yeah, your are right I suppose. Had your family followed the rules you would have at least had a say. They made up your mind for you. But of course they knew what they were doing, as you pointed out repeatedly.

[Koalabear]

I understand there are benefits to serving, but I don't think I would do that at this stage of my life. I am 27 now, I am planning to buy a house and start a family here in the next few years.

Australia is all I know as a country really. Even if I completed NS I would still renounce as I am proud to be an Australian. It is a country that supported me through most of my life.

Thanks for all the advice and support. I am very saddened that I will possibly not ever see Singapore again, but at the end of the day, my personal welfare is more important to me at the moment.

Thats why we look at serving with a strictly business viewpoint. If you already have a stable career, fiance then just go to JB to meet them! I know two people around me who defaulted NS when they left Singapore around 17 years old knowing the full consequence of their actions and never regretted as their family ties to the country are insignificant. I pity their grandparents because CMPB kept harassing them with phone calls.

[Mad Scientist]

Deleted

[utopia]

Firstly - this thread is awesome collation of information. a huge thanks to all the contributors.

In summary, it's almost a "16 year plan" starting with getting the child at 5 years old a SG passport so that he can exit the country , and also so that the SG passport expires before he turns 11.

I recognise it's certainly the countrys' right to impose these laws. My own observation is it is a overwhelming set of rules and laws that doesn't really yield a nett effect to secure 'loyalty' to Singapore. Also it's a huge gender inequality in that SG females don't have the same hoops to jump through.

Regardless, I have already embarked on the process for my 2 sons to have the choice when they reach adulthood.

Thanks once again and if I run into anything contrary, I will endevaour to update!

[sundaymorningstaple]

Firstly - this thread is awesome collation of information. a huge thanks to all the contributors.

In summary, it's almost a "16 year plan" starting with getting the child at 5 years old a SG passport so that he can exit the country , and also so that the SG passport expires before he turns 11.

I recognise it's certainly the countrys' right to impose these laws. My own observation is it is a overwhelming set of rules and laws that doesn't really yield a nett effect to secure 'loyalty' to Singapore. Also it's a huge gender inequality in that SG females don't have the same hoops to jump through.

Regardless, I have already embarked on the process for my 2 sons to have the choice when they reach adulthood.

Thanks once again and if I run into anything contrary, I will endevaour to update!

Thanks utopia, it's appreciated.

We don't like it either but we accept that it is the right of the country to manage it's own affairs. I also agree that it not the way to secure loyalty. I don't think that is the reason anyway. It's more a necessity of keeping the available manpower number up AND to prevent mass exodus from the country to avoid NS.

The country does give it's citizens the "ability" to avoid the unpleasantness but it is up to the parents to do the homework. And as pointed out, it is well known fact here and as most males here have done NS, the protocol is available at the CPMB openly. Those who chose to ignore do so tothe future detriment & agony of their offspring. As yes, it's a 16 year plan for sure if you have the notion to immigrate. As a PR, with a son here I also had to do the planning virtually from his birth (as you say (5 years of age - to get that 2nd passport to expire prior to the 11th birthday). But, while I did all the preparatory work, we eventually opted to stay here for the longer term and I had conversations with my son all the time as he was growing up to ensure that he knew what he was getting into. Obviously, in the early days it all went over his head but as each year went by, his understanding became greater. He's opted for NS due to the valuable asset that it actually is. And while he will probably renounce his local citizenship after NS he will not have burned any bridges in doing so. In fact, he will have made some valuable networks while there and, for the 21-24 months investment, he may gain a lifetime of rewards by being unhampered in his ability to return here and work or even stay if he should so choose.

My ideal national service would have the girls doing a form of national service as well (getting pregnant at least two times in a two year period after marriage). This would result in an increase in the fertility rate (a huge problem here - it's the 3rd lowest in the world), thus fueling the manpower supply for it's military needs in the future. The government should pay the women accordingly for their services (to age forty - as in NS). This way, it stops all the whining by the "mommies boys" who rail against the girls not having to do NS and moaning that the "girls are going to get ahead of us" and it cures the graying population problem.

Most countries with a form of national service don't force the females to do it (Israel is the only ready example I can think of that does) but you don't hear the male whining about it. Actually, for most they look at it as the male is the protector and not the wimp. Something has happened to Singapore's patriarchal society. I think it is called maids.

Glad you are making the necessary preps and do keep us informed with any updated information as and when.

[Koalabear]

Firstly - this thread is awesome collation of information. a huge thanks to all the contributors.

In summary, it's almost a "16 year plan" starting with getting the child at 5 years old a SG passport so that he can exit the country , and also so that the SG passport expires before he turns 11.

I recognise it's certainly the countrys' right to impose these laws. My own observation is it is a overwhelming set of rules and laws that doesn't really yield a nett effect to secure 'loyalty' to Singapore. Also it's a huge gender inequality in that SG females don't have the same hoops to jump through.

Regardless, I have already embarked on the process for my 2 sons to have the choice when they reach adulthood.

Thanks once again and if I run into anything contrary, I will endevaour to update!

Thanks utopia, it's appreciated.

We don't like it either but we accept that it is the right of the country to manage it's own affairs. I also agree that it not the way to secure loyalty. I don't think that is the reason anyway. It's more a necessity of keeping the available manpower number up AND to prevent mass exodus from the country to avoid NS.

The country does give it's citizens the "ability" to avoid the unpleasantness but it is up to the parents to do the homework. And as pointed out, it is well known fact here and as most males here have done NS, the protocol is available at the CPMB openly. Those who chose to ignore do so tothe future detriment & agony of their offspring. As yes, it's a 16 year plan for sure if you have the notion to immigrate. As a PR, with a son here I also had to do the planning virtually from his birth (as you say (5 years of age - to get that 2nd passport to expire prior to the 11th birthday). But, while I did all the preparatory work, we eventually opted to stay here for the longer term and I had conversations with my son all the time as he was growing up to ensure that he knew what he was getting into. Obviously, in the early days it all went over his head but as each year went by, his understanding became greater. He's opted for NS due to the valuable asset that it actually is. And while he will probably renounce his local citizenship after NS he will not have burned any bridges in doing so. In fact, he will have made some valuable networks while there and, for the 21-24 months investment, he may gain a lifetime of rewards by being unhampered in his ability to return here and work or even stay if he should so choose.

My ideal national service would have the girls doing a form of national service as well (getting pregnant at least two times in a two year period after marriage). This would result in an increase in the fertility rate (a huge problem here - it's the 3rd lowest in the world), thus fueling the manpower supply for it's military needs in the future. The government should pay the women accordingly for their services (to age forty - as in NS). This way, it stops all the whining by the "mommies boys" who rail against the girls not having to do NS and moaning that the "girls are going to get ahead of us" and it cures the graying population problem.

Most countries with a form of national service don't force the females to do it (Israel is the only ready example I can think of that does) but you don't hear the male whining about it. Actually, for most they look at it as the male is the protector and not the wimp. Something has happened to Singapore's patriarchal society. I think it is called maids.

Glad you are making the necessary preps and do keep us informed with any updated information as and when.

I disagree with your suggestion on female national service. That will mean on top of military service in camp, the males will have to engage in another round of national service at home with possibly inconclusive result. It is still unfair distribution of service responsibility and we will not even be compensated with pregnancy payout and maternity leave.

[Koalabear]

.

Thats why we look at serving with a strictly business viewpoint. If you already have a stable career, fiance then just go to JB to meet them! I know two people around me who defaulted NS when they left Singapore around 17 years old knowing the full consequence of their actions and never regretted as their family ties to the country are insignificant. I pity their grandparents because CMPB kept harassing them with phone calls.[/quote]

Koalabear : One word for this harrassment : VINDICTIVE but again b4 you migrated to wherever you one wanna go , planning is everything here and there.Parents should get a kick in the butt for not doing this. Anyway thick or thin they have to live with this "inconvenience"
If the family had lived part of their life in SG , surely they know the rules. Everyone knows SG is a "FINE" country to live in(':lol:')[/quote]

Of course they know the rules. But cmpb cannot do much because the Singaporean dad stayed in Singapore while the son went overseas with mum to fight off any 'harboring NS defaulter charges'. When the son reached 21 years of age, the father joins the family. He told me its pretty bad the first year, some officer will visit his dad every week for 3 months. After that they cut down the frequency and limit it to calls. When his dad left, the grandparents were left to take the brunt of the harassment.

[sundaymorningstaple]

I disagree with your suggestion on female national service. That will mean on top of military service in camp, the males will have to engage in another round of national service at home with possibly inconclusive result. It is still unfair distribution of service responsibility and we will not even be compensated with pregnancy payout and maternity leave.

And now we know why Singapore has a graying population. The males here don't like SEX! I didn't like military service either, but I own a virtual arsenal/armoury at home. Even before I went into the military, I like playing with my longarm! I figured that practice made perfect! I've always enjoyed mixing business with pleasure.

[Mad Scientist]

[loki112000]

I hope that was a joke.

It's breeding and its offspring will defend Singapore. Sleep safe.