Is Singapore brutal for using the cane

[Plavt]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7504980.stm

Thanks, however that's advocating a non-military approach, all the same food for another thread if I can be bothered or have time to start one.

[Wind In My Hair]

Thank you for hitting the nail right squarely on the head.

You're welcome, and thank you for your kind words. I guess credit goes to my dear mother. I'll never know how much of the person I am today is due to her caning me right squarely on the behind.

[earthfriendly]

I shall not linger long as I have a 7 hour drive and a nap ahead of me .

I've gotten a couple of strokes on the palm for stuff like mischief and failure to memorise my spelling lists and I still thank her for that.

You thank her for caning you? Why? You were so badly behaved that you wouldn't have done it otherwise? You are saying this tongue in cheek aren't you?

Funnily enough we didn't have caning or anything like it as I grew up, at school or at home, but still I managed to follow the rules etc. My parents instilled in me the rights and wrongs of life without the need for violence.

Could it also explain your pacifist attitude? I have never seen you resort to strong language or exegeration to make your point. You have always come across as being balanced and measured in your response, and still able to get your point across. This forum would be a much calmer and peaceful place if we have more posters like you. I would say you parent did a fine job with you. Their parenting style is well suited to your temperament. However, there are people born inherently violent in nature and need a certain amount of physical input to learn respect and boundaries.

I am against caning in general and have no respect for parents who use it as a primary tool. However, I do recognize it can serve a useful purpose if done correctly. One size does not fit all and it is important to assess the temperament of the child.

Caning has its pros and cons. The major cons for me is that it can send a wrong message to the kids. It is telling them it is OK to take short cuts in life. My daughters have to clear their bowls and bring it to the sink after each meals. On average, it may take 300 reminders/ reinforcements to instill the desired behaviours. And after the 200th reminders when they are still not doing it, I have just got to tell myself that I have 100 more reminders to go before it sinks in. Alternatively to speed up the process, I can also resort to canning. A bit simplistic but you get the gist. I would rather use reinforcement as it teaches them the virtue of patience.

And if one want to aim for a more gracious and less kiasu society, it all starts at home, in the school and at a young age. Caning is not the best way to teach kids about graciousness!

As for me, I have used it very sporadically with my girls. It is only used as a last resort when all means have been exhuasted. And it is only done after ample warning and opportunity for them to correct their behaviours. And at the end of the day, I question myself. Is there an alternative method to instill the right behaviours without resorting to it.

I believe overwhelming majority of kids do not need the cane to learn the right values and respect. I have 2 daughters. One is compliant in nature while the other test you very hard, fiercely independent on the day she was born. What do you do with a child who cleans out her yohgurt cup (better than most adults) at 7 months old, picks out her own outfit at 18 months old, put on her own shoes and socks at 2 yo, takes her own shower at 4 yo? Nope, she's not violent in nature but has a strong need to collect her own data and form her own conclusion about the world she lives in. And sometimes, a normal mode of communication is not enough to get my message across.

[earthfriendly]

My son's teacher (here in the International School in Italy) was fired because she screamed (too often) at the kids. I didn't care if she screamed as long as she did her job. But the other parents just couldn't take anything any more.

If screaming is her forte, perhaps she should consider a career singing in the opera! I believe adults should set a good example for young kids, moreso since she is an educator. If I am a teacher, I will strive to be good, not only in the subject that I teach but in my manners as well. Do we as a society, set our bar so low as to allow rude behaviours so long as she performs her basic job function? It is a bit like saying it is OK for the Enron executives to be usurping the funds so long as they are bringing in good revenue for the company. Not the best analogy but you get the idea.

But the other parents just couldn't take anything any more. And those kids are just good for computer games and play dates and less homework. When you think that kids in Asia are working harder than ever, how are my kids going to compete?

Your kids can compete in the area of good manners and social graces. They can teach the other asian kids how to have better manners .

[road.not.taken]

An interesting debate, and one that has been hashed out a few times here and through the ages. To me, the proponents of caning children almost sound like victims suffering Stockholm Syndrome -- those who were disciplined with physical punishments as children now condone it as adults. Ah well, there are as many different parenting styles as there are parents.

I have never hit my children. I would not let them attend a school where hitting was an acceptable punishment. I really do believe that children learn what they live.

The giraffe analogy was thought provoking, as nature gives us such beautiful examples of how to live a fulfilled life. All around me I find inspiration in the symetry of the oak leaf, the symbiosis of firefly to meadow, the gorgeous circle of life that is humming all around me. Just now I have Walden again on my bedstand and the Pilgrim at Tinker Creek, but that does not mean I need to eat my own young, murder my mate after copulation, or steal another's infant. We are after all, gifted with more than just opposable thumbs, we are supposed to have free will as well.

[earthfriendly]

We are after all, gifted with more than just opposable thumbs, we are supposed to have free will as well.

And sits higher up in the hierarchy, intellectually.

[sundaymorningstaple]

but that does not mean I need to eat my own young, murder my mate after copulation, or steal another's infant. We are after all, gifted with more than just opposable thumbs, we are supposed to have free will as well.

Yeah, that's the crux of it isn't it. It's the free will that we have that let's us do exactly those things you just mentioned. We read about them in the papers all the time don't we. So are we that far removed, or as EF said, higher up in the hierarchy, intellectually, from the giraffe? Or, is it only a triggering mechanism that is needed to set off our baser instincts? The so called evils (I can only guess that is what you consider them as you seem to think them as undesirable traits - I'm not disagreeing with you here), would seem to me, are a part of everybody and like feats of superhuman strength in a crisis, would reside in each and every one of us. The only thing missing is the relevant trigger to bring it to the fore.

[ScoobyDoes]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7504980.stm

Thanks, however that's advocating a non-military approach, all the same food for another thread if I can be bothered or have time to start one.

Can't remember when i split the definition of military and non-military National Service

[EADG]

I am so with you, not only because I think IMHO it's ineffective, but it makes assumptions on each family's approach to, let's call it methods of influencing behavior, punishment is what you have to resort to when you are inept at that.

Touch my kid? He's got my permission to get you back.

I also think it sets children on the wrong path, legitimizing them to do this to their peers and underlings, and, they will harbor hate in them which could fester for years and they make want to take it out on the very people who delivered it.

I always thought that if I saw that HS teacher who threw chalk at me from across the room, damn lucky he didn't hit me in the eye, years later as an adult, I'd make him just a little uncomfortable retelling him this story with a little implied physical intimidation of my own. His act did nothing to teach me or serve as any positive example, instead I lost respect for him and tuned him out thereafter.

The teachers who knew how to use positive reinforcement, clearly the more effective and "higher" functioning approach (only the more together teachers could manage that), won the respect of kids in my class.

Most of the rest shouldn't be teaching.

I have absolutely no problems with Singapore caning the criminals it does. None at all. I wish more Western countries (including my own) would adopt this 'barbaric' practice.

I DO however have a BIG problem with the physical punishment of children OTHER than by their parents.

However when it comes to corporal punishment in schools, I am in total disagreement. A teacher or headmaster has no right to physically punish any child other than their own.

[ksl]

EF: It is only used as a last resort when all means have been exhuasted. And it is only done after ample warning and opportunity for them to correct their behaviours

In general i would expect the above to be the norm, but individual tolerance levels play a major role. Personal experience goes much further than the armchair critic with no kids, and also beyond the parent, that has never experienced difficult children, one may say what is a difficult child, and the answer will be a varied response from parents with different tolerance levels.

And has a matter of fact, most goody two shoe parents, that have the sun shining from their butts, are normally the first to crack in stressful situations, simply because they have been protected all their lives, or ask the other partner to do the discipline, because they don't have the stomach for it.

And the hippie hippie shake shake nature, of flowers, and beautiful people, making love and not war, must be the most pathetic realization of human life, through the influence of narcotics.

Caning is a last resort, for the majority I would like to believe, unfortunately life isn't perfect and neither are all children, so for those that haven't yet reached their tether, I wouldn't count the chickens, until they have left the nest.

Take a tip from Desmond Morris were factual evidence in nature shows, that all animals have their ways of punishment on their young has a reminder of survival.

When the time comes for a pacifist to be tested, on tolerance we may also witness the explosive uncontrollable acts of violence, or a puddle on the floor, there is no in between.

The apologise come later, with " I just couldn't control myself" yes dearies it's all about stress levels, and believe me, i would rather trust a person that has been raised with a well balanced and controlled temper, than a person that has never been tested.

I think that speaks for itself in terms of respect and leadership,,, " A new theme for TV big brother maybe, would prove a point if these parents had to deal with unruly kids."

I have also spent working experience in rehabilitation of troubled kids and adults, from junkies, alcoholics, and trauma, and I would say the traumatised have been the most difficult and violent in a rebellious manner, of course they wasn't caned, but held down by 6 adults, until they had no energy left, and consoled in their fit of temper.

You see we are not has callous has many think, the cane is used for deliberate act's of disrespect for the rules laid out, and the severity of the punishment would be looked at accordingly, it maybe a tap on the hand just as a reminder to stay on the right side of the rules, but to test the waters of a parent maybe a painful experience.

I'm a very patient and calculated man myself, but quite the opposite of callous, my emotions remind me of the fact that I love my kids, and for every stroke given, i would shed a tear.

I am also very aware of the fact that most parents don't have a clue, what their kids get up too, I have seen groups of teenagers in school uniforms blatantly stealing in some of the shopping malls here, and none of you goody two shoes, can tell me, they go home and tell their parents, what they have been doing.

The other thing is experience of growing up from kids to adults, if you can honestly admit to yourself, that you have never been lead by others, or done bad things, to follow the peer pressure, or been the instigator, then all i can say is that you have never lived, and you also have no right to believe that your kids are following your kind, soft advice.

As a kid myself, I would never admit to doing wrong, even though i was, I was street wise at 10 years old and many of those I knew, smoked, stole, and did many petty offences, of which was wrong, these kids had passive parents, all of them they grew up, into adults with family and kids, many of them are my classmates from middle class families, and today I can honestly hold my hand up and say, I could only trust one out of 10 and have respect for maybe 3 or 4 out of the 10.

Many have grown up without ethics and i find that quite disturbing. I'm thankful for my mother very strict upbringing, but more thankful, that she also explained fully, why i was getting the the belt, poker or whatever she could get her hands on.

If she knew everything i was up to, i would have been skinned alive, although it was only borderline, because mostly i had the good sense, not to follow my leader, but my instincts of right & wrong.

Touch my kid? He's got my permission to get you back.

I also think it sets children on the wrong path, legitimizing them to do this to their peers and underlings, and, they will harbor hate in them which could fester for years and they make want to take it out on the very people who delivered it.

EADG: I recall my mother taking me back to school because i came home with my shirt ripped, my mother went ballistic in the classroom and in front of the headmaster too, she threatend to wipe the floor with the teacher, I found it rather embarassing but all the kids loved it, they were shouting go on Mrs do it, my mothers little Welsh temper, wasn't to be messed with, she had bisceps like arnold

[Wind In My Hair]

I suppose careful reading of posts and not jumping to conclusions is too much to ask for. I did not say whether caning is right or wrong. It is exactly this absolutist moralising position that I am against. I merely suggested that until we know more about a specific situation - the child involved, the parent, and the circumstances - we could consider suspending judgment.

The suggestion that those of us who were caned (in a controlled manner by loving and well-meaning parents, as opposed to abusive out-of-control ones) when young have turned out to find violence acceptable, or perhaps even practise it ourselves, is insulting. It's also rather unintelligent, again being a judgment in a vacuum with no regard for truth.

If a few strokes of the cane could rid my child of its arrogant, judgmental, holier-than-thou attitude that would cause it to grow up being disliked, shunned, and disrespected by most good and intelligent folks, I would seriously consider it.

[Plavt]

Can't remember when i split the definition of military and non-military National Service

I never said you did, we are at a slight mis-understanding you did actually say National Service which I took to mean military since at the time I hadn't seen the clip. My apologies for the error.

[Plavt]

It's the free will that we have that let's us do exactly those things you just mentioned.

That's just your supposition, the real reasons for what you read in the papers run deeper than free will.

[Plavt]

The suggestion that those of us who were caned (in a controlled manner by loving and well-meaning parents, as opposed to abusive out-of-control ones) when younghave turned out to find violence acceptable, or perhaps even practise it ourselves, is insulting. It's also rather unintelligent, again being a judgment in a vacuum with no regard for truth.

In a 'controlled manner?' What are you talking about? I still remember my school days, that was hardly a controlled manner. However, you are welcome to your archaic philosophies.

[EADG]

"....caning....loving....well-meaning...."

I must be very Western to find this the most amusing and amazing thing I've read this week.

..... those...who were caned...in a controlled manner by loving and well-meaning parents....

I can imagine, before taking the cane out of the closet, them saying something like 'this is going to hurt me more than it will you' or 'this is for your own good'.

Many questions spring to mind -

Is 'controlled manner' something akin to non-full contact karate? Does it mean the parent tries not to enjoy it too much, or doesn't do it too often, or pulls back before contact, or stops when welts are raised? Is there a standard number of whacks per age per gender per neighborhood consensus, or family tradition, or severity of crime, or type of cane, or number of splits in the bamboo?

Are there recommended grips, and do they have grip wrap like on a tennis racquet?

Is it better to have a southpaw parent?

Is there a preferred stance and angle of attack? How much consideration should be given for the wind-up, for the follow-through?

How much blood is "ok"?

Is the cane wiped down after use?

Is salt employed in more severe cases?

Is alcohol served afterwards?

Is it then mentioned in the following church confessional, or this is considered 'ok' and not necessary to submit for forgivness?

Is it common to say "thank you sir may I have another" mid-wacking? Or does that buy one more wacks?

If the cane breaks mid-wacking, does that absolve the offender from further wacks?

What is the care and cleaning of a cane, or is it recommeded to use a fresh one each time?

Is there a case for the cane, leather on the outside, felt on the inside, like for a pool que?

Is there a proper location in the house to store the cane?

Is it videoed to serve as disincentive to siblings, or are they made to watch? Are photos taken of the wounds afterwards?

Is there a notch on the wall, next to the ruler marking height increases at certain ages, for each wacking, with date, offender and offense?

Are the wackees given a time-out between wacks?

Is it ok, if your cane is broken, to borrow from a neighboor?

Does the parent who is assigned the task of wacking but doesn't wish to, when out of sight of the parent who commissioned the wacking, do it in another room, wack instead the table, and tell the wackee to emit shreiks as though being wacked?


I'm sure you can think of others.....


To even consider caning another human being will gladly remain barbaric and beyond this Westerner.