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Dual nationality, which one takes precedence?

Do you have a question about National Service (NS) in Singapore? Discuss it here.
The Ref
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Re: Dual nationality, which one takes precedence?

Post by The Ref » Fri, 21 Dec 2018 6:58 pm

@SMS I think it is obvious the OP thinks he knows far more about this than you which is why he argues with any advise he is given. I believe he is wise enough to make his own decisions.

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Re: Dual nationality, which one takes precedence?

Post by alvinlwh » Fri, 21 Dec 2018 7:53 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:If you gave up your SC your son would not lose his. In fact, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't as that would be the easy way out of NS just immigrate and the parents give up their SC so the boy escapes NS. It doesn't work quite that way. You give up SC, Write letter to CMPB before shortly before his 13th birthday indicating you have immigrated and have given up SC and you are requesting renunciation of your son's SC which can only be accomplished at the age of 21 but as he is taking up foreign citizenship, CMPB will probably grant him the exit permit(s) or have bond/surety posted. Once boy reaches 21, assuming no stumbling along the way (it's a deliberate minefield), He will be free to renounce. Until or unless protocol is followed to the 'T' he will retain his SC (once the gahment has it's claws set it is not easy to escape their clutches without running foul of the law). The whole premise behind the parents giving up their SC is that the gahment figures if the parents are still holding assets in Singapore, the only reason for immigrating (on the surface) was to help male offspring to evade NS and by keeping assets/SG citizenship you are keeping a back door open. And if you think about it, if you are immigrating, why are you still holding SG assets/CPF, etc. It's a valid point if you look at it realistically. But the son, by virtue of his SC will be the one to ultimately pay for the sins of the parents (who do not realize the potential pitfalls of what they are doing). This is why we harp on the worst case scenarios.
Right, finally have time to read and reply to this.

If my son will not lose his SC when I give up mine, then what is the point of everyone telling me to give up me in the first place? I lose the benefits of SC without any gain in any benefits.

However thank you for the part about 13th birthday. That is a really useful bit of information. I do, however, have a question about the 364 days EP; My understanding is long term (i.e. >2y) EP with bond, etc will only be issued to full time students overseas.What about the bondless 364 days EP? Does the boy have to be in full time education for this too? This EP situation is quite strange; when I applied for mine (before I was MRed), I can get 3 years EP for "Working Overseas" but only 1 year for "PR overseas".

I will not worry about the asset part, I do not have a HDB flat and my CPF is almost nothing anyway given that I worked less than 2 years in SG before leaving. I presume that even after giving up SC, I am still allowed to keep my UOB account? My wife, a MC with no SPR, WP, EP, etc still has a live POSB account (although with minimal amount of money in it with no activities).

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Re: Dual nationality, which one takes precedence?

Post by alvinlwh » Fri, 21 Dec 2018 7:55 pm

The Ref wrote:@SMS I think it is obvious the OP thinks he knows far more about this than you which is why he argues with any advise he is given. I believe he is wise enough to make his own decisions.
I don't, which is why I am using the search function to look at old posts of similar cases and questioning (not arguing) why advises (or conclusions) differ.

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Re: Dual nationality, which one takes precedence?

Post by sundaymorningstaple » Sat, 22 Dec 2018 5:28 pm

Banking accounts are commercial not governmental like CPF or HDB. If you own a condo, not an issue, but if you own a condo and an HDB then it's sleeping policemean or road hump to stumble on. In theory, a CPF account will not do anything except for the fact that it is a government organization, but for a former SG citizen it might. I am familiar with PRs & ex-PRs who have not withdrawn their CPF and even own condo's here. But at the moment not enough time as elapsed to find out what ramifications these will ultimately have. From what we've been given to understand there is not a need for a bond if the exit permit is for less than 1 year (e.g., 364 days). This will be different as in this case is for emigration purposes and the letter before the age of 13 being approved by the CPBM. I don't think there is a 24 month/2yr EP available for emigration purposes but I cannot swear to it. I believe the 2 year EP is for schooling (which could apply as well, but then he will have to do his NS at any rate as he won't have the approval from CMPB for purposes of emigration and ultimately renouncing his SC.

My advice? Let you future son grow up to be a man. Or at least give him the chance to make up his own mind with out you laying all kinds of traps for him to get ensnared in thinking you can pull the eyes over the ICA and Mindef. As oft has been said, too much knowledge is sometimes a dangerous thing in the hands of the wrong people.

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Re: Dual nationality, which one takes precedence?

Post by byseeksconseil1 » Tue, 25 Dec 2018 1:16 am

I am sorry if I am hijacking your post to ask a minor question. I am curious about the paragraph I bolded below. If you present your UK Passport to the airline check-in counter of Changi Airport, and if they make a note of this in their system, does ICA not have access to it? (assuming you are flying on Singapore Airlines)
alvinlwh wrote:
Exited SG on my SGPP and her UKPP. Did have a slight problem entering MY at Second Link with our UKPP where the MY IO noticed that my brand new UKPP has no SG stamp and if entering MY at Second Link, the only possible country one can be from will be SG. Asked me if I am a SPR and I just said yes. Asked for my IC and I presented my pink NRIC and he stamped and waved us through no problem. The reason I have to enter MY with my UKPP is we are applying for my daughter's Malaysian Citizenship by descent without wanting them to know that we are also in fact SC. Returned to SG on my own and entered with my SGPP no problem. Picked up her SGPP at ICA and returned to MY to pick her up with my SGPP, no problem. Returned to SG on both our SGPP, no problem.

Did have another problem at check in back to UK, airline refused me checking in because I did not have a resident permit on a one way (return leg) ticket. Presented my UKPP, checked in, boarded no problem.

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Re: Dual nationality, which one takes precedence?

Post by alvinlwh » Mon, 07 Jan 2019 10:00 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:Banking accounts are commercial not governmental like CPF or HDB. If you own a condo, not an issue, but if you own a condo and an HDB then it's sleeping policemean or road hump to stumble on. In theory, a CPF account will not do anything except for the fact that it is a government organization, but for a former SG citizen it might. I am familiar with PRs & ex-PRs who have not withdrawn their CPF and even own condo's here. But at the moment not enough time as elapsed to find out what ramifications these will ultimately have. From what we've been given to understand there is not a need for a bond if the exit permit is for less than 1 year (e.g., 364 days). This will be different as in this case is for emigration purposes and the letter before the age of 13 being approved by the CPBM. I don't think there is a 24 month/2yr EP available for emigration purposes but I cannot swear to it. I believe the 2 year EP is for schooling (which could apply as well, but then he will have to do his NS at any rate as he won't have the approval from CMPB for purposes of emigration and ultimately renouncing his SC.

My advice? Let you future son grow up to be a man. Or at least give him the chance to make up his own mind with out you laying all kinds of traps for him to get ensnared in thinking you can pull the eyes over the ICA and Mindef. As oft has been said, too much knowledge is sometimes a dangerous thing in the hands of the wrong people.
Thanks, looks like no SC for my future boy (confirmed on 29 Dec). I will gift him BC only and wife can gift him MC.

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Re: Dual nationality, which one takes precedence?

Post by alvinlwh » Mon, 07 Jan 2019 11:52 pm

byseeksconseil1 wrote:I am sorry if I am hijacking your post to ask a minor question. I am curious about the paragraph I bolded below. If you present your UK Passport to the airline check-in counter of Changi Airport, and if they make a note of this in their system, does ICA not have access to it? (assuming you are flying on Singapore Airlines)
alvinlwh wrote:
Did have another problem at check in back to UK, airline refused me checking in because I did not have a resident permit on a one way (return leg) ticket. Presented my UKPP, checked in, boarded no problem.
Now, I cannot say 100% what SQ check in staff will or will not do, I flew with BA. BUT bare this in mind, the check in staff are NOT SQ, BA or whatever airlines. They are SATS, dnata, or whatever. They are companies working for the airlines, so the same person could be working for Air China one hour and then checking in for Qatar the next.

Therefore, it is of no interest for them to inform anyone of the number of passports you have. Their job is to check if the correct person (name, DOB, sex, etc) is presented for check in and it is legal for them to fly to wherever the plane is going (right visa, passport validity, etc). I had done this twice, once is the cock up as stated above. The second time was a year later, where I presented my UKPP straight up without problem, . You can, in theory, your API online before checking in. I had never done that and never had a problem with my bookings on a SGPP.

Below is the times I entered and exited SG with various passports and you can see that I came and went without problems.

First time:
1. Entered SG on SGPP (manual counter at SIN)
2. Exited SG on SGPP (2nd link)
3. Entered MY on UKPP (got questioned at MY side)
4. Exited MY on UKPP (KLIA)
5. Entered SG on SGPP (auto gate at SIN)
6. Exited SG on SGPP (auto gate at SIN)
7. Entered MY on SGPP (KLIA)
8. Entered SG on SGPP (manual counter at SIN)
9. Tried to check in to return to UK on SGPP at SIN, refused. Produced UKPP, checked in no problem. An alternative is I still have my old ILR (UK version of PR) in my old expired passport, which I can use a prove of entry permit. Strangely, it is still valid and never voided even when I became a BC. This may not work with the new biometric ILR cards.
10. Exited SG on SGPP (manual counter at SIN)

2nd time 1 year later:
1. Entered MY on UKPP (KLIA)
2. Exited MY on UKPP (KLIA)
3. Entered SG on SGPP (auto gate at SIN)
4. Exited SG on SGPP (auto gate at causeway)
5. Entered MY on SGPP (got questioned at MY side)
6. Exited MY on SGPP (causeway)
7. Entered SG on SGPP (auto gate at causeway)
8. Exited SG on SGPP (auto gate at SIN)
9. Entered MY on SGPP (got questioned at SZB)
10. Exited MY on SGPP (KLIA)
11. Entered SG on SGPP (manual counter at SIN)
12. Checked in to return to UK on UKPP (SIN)
13. Exited SG on SGPP

As you can see, I entered and left a number of time since holding using a UKPP without problems, both with manual counters and auto gates. I had to use manual counters at times because I am traveling with an infant. It seems that MY is more interested in questioning me. The key is to ONLY use your SGPP at the SG immigration control points. Once passed those points, you can put away your SGPP. For point 12 of my 2nd time, I followed these specific steps.

1. Check in counter - UKPP
2. Security where they check your passport and boarding pass - SGPP
3. Immigration (manual counter) - SGPP
There is not enough time or distance between 2 and 3 to switch passport. It don't matter at 2 which passport you use as their job is to check that the boarding pass matches the PP holder, but realistically, just use SGPP as it is just a few steps between the security and immigration counter.
4. Actual boarding of the flight - UKPP (although it don't matter here anymore)
5. Arrival at LHR - UKPP
6. Transit to internal flights - UKDL (PP not required for internal flights)

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Re: Dual nationality, which one takes precedence?

Post by PNGMK » Tue, 08 Jan 2019 8:40 am

I agree with the above. Where dual citizens (with Singapore as one) stuff up is when they try to enter or leave Singapore and present the wrong passport (non-Singapore PP) to Singapore ICA staff who then correlate the name and birth date to a Singaporean or worse still can't find a entry record when the person is trying to exit...
I not lawyer/teacher/CPA.
You've been arrested? Law Society of Singapore can provide referrals.
You want an International School job? School website or http://www.ISS.edu
Your rugrat needs a School? Avoid for profit schools
You need Tax advice? Ask a CPA
You ran away without doing NS? Shame on you!

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Re: Dual nationality, which one takes precedence?

Post by alvinlwh » Wed, 09 Jan 2019 7:19 pm

PNGMK wrote:I agree with the above. Where dual citizens (with Singapore as one) stuff up is when they try to enter or leave Singapore and present the wrong passport (non-Singapore PP) to Singapore ICA staff who then correlate the name and birth date to a Singaporean or worse still can't find a entry record when the person is trying to exit...
I just want to add, the boarding pass is checked against the ID of the person, with no mention of PP number or country of issue. Basically just name only, not even DOB or sex. As long as the name matches the ID and the ID photo matches the person, security and gate agent will allow boarding. Point here is knowing what each person checks at each point and presenting the right document.

At SIN (other airports may vary)
1. Check in agent - Checks that the right person is checking in AND s/he is allowed to fly to the country, so PP that complies with the entry requirements like visa, validity of the destination. In the case of UK, the requirement is for a return/onward ticket or LTE (long stay entry visa) or LTR (long stay visa) or ILR (PR) before allowing boarding. So I CANNOT use my SGPP for checking in, unless I use it together with an old SGPP with an ILR attached OR have a return/orwards ticket out of the UK. YMMV with different countries.
2. Security - Checks that the person with the boarding pass is allowed to enter the secured area. Any PP will do. But see the point about short distance to immigration check point.
3. Immigration - Checks that the person is allowed to leave SG. SGPP ONLY!!!!! SGPP is put away after this point.
4. Duty free shop - Checks that the person is indeed leaving the country and therefore allowed duty free shopping. Any passport, I used UKPP.
5. Gate Xray security - Checks that you are not carrying more than 100ml of liquid on the plane. Don't think they actually checks PP, just boarding pass. However, any PP will do with them, I used UKPP.
6. Gate agent - Checks that the person is allowed on the plane. Any PP will do. I used UKPP.
7. Destination immigration - Checks that the person is allowed to enter the country. Obviously if a citizen of that country, use that country's PP. International law states that one must use the PP issued by the country that issued it if they are trying to enter the said country. Also, for obvious reasons, why use a different one since one is "going home" anyway. This apply to entering and leaving SG too.
8. Domestic flights - Domestic flights is not something that SGreans are familiar with as they don't exist in SG. In many countries, one can fly on a domestic with a government issued ID such as a driving licence. So once I cleared UK immigration at LHR (with a UKPP obviously!), I put our PPs away (my wife with a MYPP also have a UKDL) and use our UKDLs (easier to handle) for the 2 domestics to our final destination.

As seen above, it is at Point 3 that a SGPP MUST be produced and possibly the destination country's PP at Point 1. All other points don't really matters.

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Re: Dual nationality, which one takes precedence?

Post by zzm9980 » Thu, 24 Jan 2019 3:11 pm

Anecdotes above are great, but keep in mind technology improves, processes improve, and digital data is forever.

You're a fool to think your personal details (including passport number) aren't recorded by the airline at check and available somewhere. Immigration in the US has ready access from all airlines. Fly to the US, scan your passport on entry, and the kiosk immediately shows you your flight and asks to confirm that's the one you arrived on. They don't even bother to check passports on the way out since the airline provides the data when you leave. You think ICA doesn't (or couldn't) get access to this information and make use of it in the future? The only reason they don't right now is they don't see it as worth their time. The day someone decides it is worth the effort they will, and don't count on a press release to give you advanced warning.

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Re: Dual nationality, which one takes precedence?

Post by alvinlwh » Thu, 24 Jan 2019 7:06 pm

zzm9980 wrote:Anecdotes above are great, but keep in mind technology improves, processes improve, and digital data is forever.

You're a fool to think your personal details (including passport number) aren't recorded by the airline at check and available somewhere. Immigration in the US has ready access from all airlines. Fly to the US, scan your passport on entry, and the kiosk immediately shows you your flight and asks to confirm that's the one you arrived on. They don't even bother to check passports on the way out since the airline provides the data when you leave. You think ICA doesn't (or couldn't) get access to this information and make use of it in the future? The only reason they don't right now is they don't see it as worth their time. The day someone decides it is worth the effort they will, and don't count on a press release to give you advanced warning.
You are not wrong, which is why it is important to have a Plan B is the worst happens. For me, I have 2 Plan Bs.

1. i can give up my SC and take out all my CPF and enter SG as a tourist in the future and claim GST on my shopping (have to use my wife's MYPP at the moment)
2. I can give up my UKC and show the letter to SG to their satisfaction and then reclaim my BC.

Since my next child will be a boy and he will not be getting SC, it doesn't matter so much to me anymore if SG finds out or not.

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