Citizenship Application Rejection Letter

Relocating, travelling or planning to make Singapore home? Discuss the criterias, passes or visa that is required.
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smoulder
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Re: Citizenship Application Rejection Letter

Post by smoulder » Tue, 01 Dec 2020 4:49 pm

Pinkpanther wrote:
Tue, 01 Dec 2020 3:20 pm
Ultratech, then I agree it's a bit of a mystery. All the best. I hope it works out in the end.
To answer your question, markers of integration that I think are important: 1) kids in local school 2) HDB over condo 3) learning one of the three official languages 4) community club membership and participation in community events (but not volunteering and making donations - red flags for ICA unless done in conjunction with participation). As always, it's a bunch of factors that determine outcome, of which integration is one. With a child in local school, perhaps you ticked the integration box and it was something else. Did you wait for a long time before applying for citizenship? Any other evidence that you may not be committed to Singapore? And finally, an odd question that you don't need to answer - do you speak Hindi? North Indians don't seem to be doing well.
One of the biggest markers of integration is having a stable marriage with a Singaporean, especially of the preferred race.

Having said that, where do you pick up that he is an Indian? Some of the anecdotal evidence suggests that Tamilians and Punjabis seem to do slightly better. If that's true, it's probably because there are a few more of them among Singaporeans who've lived here for a few generations and therefore someone coming in from India might be in a better position to integrate with the ones who are here already.

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Re: Citizenship Application Rejection Letter

Post by Pinkpanther » Tue, 01 Dec 2020 5:08 pm

Smoulder, nope, it's a long road to citizenship for the spouse of a Singaporean - STVP, LTVP, LTVP+, PR...and finally SC (if successful). They want to make sure it's not a marriage of convenience and they monitor that for years. I know of someone who was rejected 4 times (the last time even after the local MP put in a word at the behest of his Singaporean wife). I know a Chinese woman from China with a (Singaporean) son in P4 and still PR. Said she didn't care anymore, had enough.

I didn't pick up that OP was Indian. I asked whether he was Hindi-speaking because that's one category that's not doing well at the moment. Why they're not doing well is anybody's guess, but my guess is different from yours. They were once being made PRs and SCs in hordes, not anymore.
Last edited by Pinkpanther on Thu, 03 Dec 2020 3:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Citizenship Application Rejection Letter

Post by smoulder » Tue, 01 Dec 2020 9:59 pm

Pinkpanther wrote:
Tue, 01 Dec 2020 5:08 pm
Smoulder, nope, it's a long road to citizenship for the spouse of a Singaporean - STVP, LTVP, LTVP+, PR...and finally SC (if successful). They want to make sure it's not a marriage of convenience and they monitor that for years. I know of someone who was rejected 4 times (the last time even after the local MP put in a word at the behest of his Singaporean wife). I know a Chinese woman from China with a (Singaporean) son who is now quite old and still PR. Said she didn't care anymore, had enough.

I didn't pick up that OP was Indian or that he spoke Hindi. I asked because if he was Hindi-speaking because that's one category who are not doing well at the moment. Why they're not doing well is anybody's guess, but my guess is different from yours. They were once being made PRs and SCs in hordes, not anymore.
Yes obviously, along with "integration", they are also looking out for marriages of convenience. But to imply that it's harder for someone who's married to an SC to get approval is a bit of a stretch. You'll find enough of anecdotal evidence here to suggest the contrary. Those applicants still need to tick other boxes obviously, but this is a big factor.

Anyway we are digressing. Most groups of ethnicities are having a hard time to get approval for citizenship and PR. I wouldn't want to hazard a guess which one of the many "unlucky" ethnicities he is but north indian is the last thing that comes to mind from his description. My guess is another South east Asian country.... Small chance Japan or Korea.

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Re: Citizenship Application Rejection Letter

Post by Pinkpanther » Wed, 02 Dec 2020 12:41 am

They are looking at a bunch of criteria, not just one or two, but no one knows what these are. If you tick the right boxes, you are in - way before any spouse is even allowed to apply. I am a PR, recently approved on the first application which was processed in 6+ months. So, don't generalise. I believe I know why I made it, but that's not what I set out to discuss. In any case, it looks like there are various categories under which applicants fall, with each category being governed by a set of criteria, so what applies to me may not apply to someone else and vice versa.
No one particularly cares about what "the last thing" on your "mind" was. Heck, they don't even care about what the first thing was! In fact no one even cares whether or not you possess a mind in the first place. Your guess about ethnicity is as good or as bad as anyone else's.
P.S. I belong to one of your "unlucky" / less favoured categories. 🤣
Last edited by Pinkpanther on Wed, 02 Dec 2020 6:37 am, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Citizenship Application Rejection Letter

Post by smoulder » Wed, 02 Dec 2020 1:12 am

Pinkpanther wrote:
Wed, 02 Dec 2020 12:41 am
They are looking at a bunch of criteria, not just one or two, but no one knows exactly what they are. If you tick the right boxes, you are in - way before any spouse is even allowed to apply. I am a PR, recently approved on the first application which was processed in 6+ months (applied after 5 years here). So, don't generalise. I believe I know why I made it, but that's not what I set out to discuss. In any case, it looks like there are various categories under which applicants fall, each governed by a set of criteria, so what applies to me may not apply to someone else and vice versa.
No one particularly cares about what "the last thing" on your "mind" was. Heck, they don't even care about what the first thing was! In fact no one even cares whether or not you possess a mind in the first place. Your guess about ethnicity is as good or as bad as anyone else's.
P.S. I belong to one of your "unlucky" / less favoured categories. 🤣
Wow someone seems to be rubbed the wrong way. Seems you are quite into generalizations which is what you accused me of. Whatever. I hope you are more fun in real life.

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Re: Citizenship Application Rejection Letter

Post by ultratech » Wed, 02 Dec 2020 11:05 pm

Pinkpanther wrote:
Tue, 01 Dec 2020 3:20 pm
Ultratech, then I agree it's a bit of a mystery. All the best. I hope it works out in the end.
To answer your question, markers of integration that I think are important: 1) kids in local school 2) HDB over condo 3) learning one of the three official languages 4) community club membership and participation in community events (but not volunteering and making donations - red flags for ICA unless done in conjunction with participation). As always, it's a bunch of factors that determine outcome, of which integration is one. With a child in local school, perhaps you ticked the integration box and it was something else. Did you wait for a long time before applying for citizenship? Any other evidence that you may not be committed to Singapore? And finally, an odd question that you don't need to answer - do you speak Hindi? North Indians don't seem to be doing well.
Thanks @PinkPanther. Good points summarised above. I guess we could put it down to Covid19 for this time.
To answer your last query. No we don't speak hindi.. :)

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Re: Citizenship Application Rejection Letter

Post by the observer » Thu, 03 Dec 2020 7:34 am

Good on you pinkpanther.

At least you’re aware it’s a set of criteria’s these days.

They termed it Contribution, Integration and Commitment. Proven, rather than pledges made.

That’s just to get the edge over the other applicants within your quota pool.

I guess this will be the new norm, until the next election, depending on how the gahmen fares.

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Re: Citizenship Application Rejection Letter

Post by the observer » Thu, 03 Dec 2020 7:59 am

Actually, on 2nd thoughts.
Criteria’s may have been tightened further.

It’s anyone’s guess.

Pinkpanther got approved pre election.

https://forum.singaporeexpats.com/view ... 15#p836350

And then there were outbursts during and post election over Indian nationals/Changi business park.

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Re: Citizenship Application Rejection Letter

Post by bro75 » Thu, 03 Dec 2020 10:10 am

I believe having kids in local school is not really a criteria nowadays since local school places are tough to get. In P1, it is a lottery for foreigners with a small chance of being accepted. In P2-P5, it is even worse with a reported 5% chance of acceptance (based on AEIS results).

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Re: Citizenship Application Rejection Letter

Post by Pinkpanther » Thu, 03 Dec 2020 11:21 am

the observer wrote:
Thu, 03 Dec 2020 7:59 am
Actually, on 2nd thoughts.
Criteria’s may have been tightened further.

It’s anyone’s guess.

Pinkpanther got approved pre election.

https://forum.singaporeexpats.com/view ... 15#p836350

And then there were outbursts during and post election over Indian nationals/Changi business park.
Pre-2020 elections, yes, approved 2019 - but way after they tightened PR requirements and cut down the number of PRs by about 50% (after the 2011 elections and in subsequent years). Fortunately, not impacted by Covid, but the strict screening and calling out people for gaming the system did not start this year.
Last edited by Pinkpanther on Thu, 03 Dec 2020 11:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Citizenship Application Rejection Letter

Post by Pinkpanther » Thu, 03 Dec 2020 11:26 am

bro75 wrote:
Thu, 03 Dec 2020 10:10 am
I believe having kids in local school is not really a criteria nowadays since local school places are tough to get. In P1, it is a lottery for foreigners with a small chance of being accepted. In P2-P5, it is even worse with a reported 5% chance of acceptance (based on AEIS results).
Not true. There are people who don't express any interest in the Phase 3 P1 registration. The point is not whether the luck of the draw favours them but whether they have any real intent to send their kids to local school. Also, there are hordes of PRs who, as PRs, are guaranteed a place in local school and still send their kids to International Schools. Not a great signal to send out in terms of integration before a citizenship application.
Just to clarify, I absolutely believe in integration and feel ICA are doing the right thing. They should be filtering out those who want citizenship without any interest in being local.
Last edited by Pinkpanther on Thu, 03 Dec 2020 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Citizenship Application Rejection Letter

Post by malcontent » Thu, 03 Dec 2020 12:27 pm

Phase 3 in P1 registration represents the least desired spots in local schools, after everyone else has had their pick. Despite that, there still aren’t nearly enough “unwanted spots” left over for non-SC, non-PR population here who are tax paying residents of Singapore (some people still seem to think foreign students are mostly non-residents who’s family don’t pay taxes here, those days are practically gone). Note that many who apply in phase 3 are not given a spot, or are given a spot at a school across town - not even a spot at the least desired neighborhood school! Is it any wonder that many give up and just go international?

It was not always this way, it was around the mid-2000’s that supply of spots was reduced below the level of demand, and around that same time, differentiated school fees started to kick in... something of a ERP system to discourage foreigners in the local school system.

While this is all good intentioned policy that further differentiates the perceived value of SC and PR, the consequence is that the vibrancy of local kids mixing with international kids is almost completely lost... and this is something that many local parents expressed a desire for (it used to be a big draw for Tanjong Katong as an example). This creates a more insular environment for school kids here, and without such exposure they are likely to be less globally minded, less open to the world outside and possibly less prepared to take on future leadership positions in global companies here.
It’s not what happens to you, but how you react to it that matters ~ Epictetus

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Re: Citizenship Application Rejection Letter

Post by mystic_river » Thu, 03 Dec 2020 2:48 pm

I have asked this question before but I will ask again - how does the ICA quantify/prove integration of an applicant?

I for one have done my whole sec sch, jc, uni locally (funnily enough, i am a dragon baby and no schools had any spots to even consider taking me in. luckily, one neighborhood school did have spots left and took me in and the only reason why my parents wanted me to attend a local school was because the fees were miles cheaper than an International School).

I daresay I have been integrated here so well that all my friends are singaporean and there's no way I will venture out of Singapore to work/live anywhere else in the world because I can't bear to leave my friends and life that I have here. But what would the ICA know about that anyway...

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Re: Citizenship Application Rejection Letter

Post by smoulder » Thu, 03 Dec 2020 3:18 pm

mystic_river wrote:
Thu, 03 Dec 2020 2:48 pm
I have asked this question before but I will ask again - how does the ICA quantify/prove integration of an applicant?

I for one have done my whole sec sch, jc, uni locally (funnily enough, i am a dragon baby and no schools had any spots to even consider taking me in. luckily, one neighborhood school did have spots left and took me in and the only reason why my parents wanted me to attend a local school was because the fees were miles cheaper than an International School).

I daresay I have been integrated here so well that all my friends are singaporean and there's no way I will venture out of Singapore to work/live anywhere else in the world because I can't bear to leave my friends and life that I have here. But what would the ICA know about that anyway...
These are all markers for integration for sure apart from being married to a local. And these are things that are easy to tell for the government. I'd wager that integration wouldn't be an issue for you. As others have stated, there are many factors being looked at.

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Re: Citizenship Application Rejection Letter

Post by Pinkpanther » Thu, 03 Dec 2020 3:26 pm

mystic_river wrote:
Thu, 03 Dec 2020 2:48 pm
I have asked this question before but I will ask again - how does the ICA quantify/prove integration of an applicant?

I for one have done my whole sec sch, jc, uni locally (funnily enough, i am a dragon baby and no schools had any spots to even consider taking me in. luckily, one neighborhood school did have spots left and took me in and the only reason why my parents wanted me to attend a local school was because the fees were miles cheaper than an International School).

I daresay I have been integrated here so well that all my friends are singaporean and there's no way I will venture out of Singapore to work/live anywhere else in the world because I can't bear to leave my friends and life that I have here. But what would the ICA know about that anyway...
You went to local school / JC /uni and I daresay that is exactly why you love your life in Singapore and your Singaporean friends. Your parents' views (go local only if you can't afford international) reflect what a certain group of expats think. So, I think ICA have got it right here. Sadly, a very large number, particularly wealthy expats who can afford International Schools, look down on locals and local schools (cheap is always worse) even though it should be known to all by now that Singapore has one of the best systems of education in the world. We actually CHOSE to apply under Phase 3, genuinely wanting a place because we don't think much of the standard of academics in international schools and prefer the curriculum and values taught in local school.
I'm sorry if you've been disappointed by the ICA, but the integration issue apart, it looks like success is contingent on a whole bunch of factors. And, unfortunately, no one has an inkling as to what criteria they are applying (as I mention above, I think different criteria apply to different categories but it's hard to pinpoint what these are).

All the best. I hope you make it!
Last edited by Pinkpanther on Thu, 03 Dec 2020 7:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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