PR abuse

Relocating, travelling or planning to make Singapore home? Discuss the criterias, passes or visa that is required.
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NYY1
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Re: PR abuse

Post by NYY1 » Wed, 03 Aug 2022 12:06 pm

MOCHS wrote:
Wed, 03 Aug 2022 11:36 am
.....
As for the renting part, I guess they can rent out their overseas property while staying in HDB. Or have only one spouse convert to SC to get around the “non-SC owner cannot rent out” rule? Must all the owners be SCs to rent out or just one owner?
Yes, rent out overseas is possible if they haven't complied with property ownership restrictions (i.e. also illegal).

I'm sorry but I am not sure on only one spouse convert to SC. I think the PR likely would have been an essential occupier, but not necessarily an owner, and it would come down to whether the SC is able to own the flat on his/her own if the essential occupier is removed. I think HDB's intent would be to not allow this, given that decoupling was stopped years ago (transfer HDB to one spouse to avoid ABSD with other spouse buying a condo).

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Re: PR abuse

Post by x9200 » Wed, 03 Aug 2022 1:13 pm

NYY1 wrote:
Wed, 03 Aug 2022 9:38 am
While I don't disagree with anything you say about "permanent," to be fair the time and thinking under which some people here (in SG broadly) obtained PR was perhaps different from today? As I mentioned elsewhere, there may be a portion of 40-50 year olds that obtained PR decades ago and never had any intention to convert to SC. The difference now is that many of these people likely wouldn't be approved. Still, I wouldn't say they've "abused" anything even if they decide to move on or move back home.
I expect for vast majority of "Western" PRs the single citizenship allowed rule is why they don't even apply for SC. While I sort of understand the reason of such restrictions being in place it is still extremely prohibitive in making this next natural step and applying/acquiring SC.

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Re: PR abuse

Post by malcontent » Wed, 03 Aug 2022 1:33 pm

MOCHS wrote:
Wed, 03 Aug 2022 7:47 am
smoulder wrote:
Tue, 02 Aug 2022 10:19 pm
Not treated as harshly by who? By fellow Singaporeans?
Yeah, if a fellow Singaporean has an exit plan, most of us just react with “Okay, go lor.”

I feel there are a few categories of Singaporeans with an exit plan:

1. Married to a foreign spouse and wants to settle in spouse’s country.

2. Part of the LGBTQ community since their marriage isn’t legally recognised here or they experience discrimination and rather go overseas to places where it is rainbow friendly.

3. Complains about SG being too expensive, too pressurising, no nature, no freedom, no work-life balance, etc. Feels the grass is greener on the other side compared to “Stinkapore”. Some really do strive to get the opportunity to work aboard. And maybe some just keep ranting but make no effort to move overseas.

4. Does like & appreciate SG but after analysing various aspects, practically makes a decision to retire overseas for lower cost of living.

I think the whole “us vs them” boils down to what pass you’re on. If you’re on a work pass, it is accepted you’re here temporarily and will go back home eventually. If you converted to PR, it implies you are already committed to be here permanently instead of parachuting off when the opportunity arises which leads to SG losing its one resource which is people.
Yes, I can see that. Although it seems like a double-standard, the perception is that some PRs will just scoop off the cream and leave… like having your cake and eating it too.

I think that the culture here reinforces that perception — with the unshakable expectation that anyone who has an opportunity to take advantage of something, will take advantage of it… or else they are a fool.

TBH that culture has rubbed off on me over the decades, so in evaluating whether to apply for PR, I think purely in terms of WIFM because PR is like an engagement and SC is like a marriage… you can go forward but not backward, so better think twice! And, it’s not that I don’t have a heart for SG… I have lived here more than half of my life, how can I have no feeling? But I also know my place: an ang moh can never be truly accepted as a local in the minds of locals. That is just reality.
It’s not what happens to you, but how you react to it that matters ~ Epictetus

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Re: PR abuse

Post by smoulder » Wed, 03 Aug 2022 1:54 pm

malcontent wrote:
Wed, 03 Aug 2022 1:33 pm
MOCHS wrote:
Wed, 03 Aug 2022 7:47 am
smoulder wrote:
Tue, 02 Aug 2022 10:19 pm
Not treated as harshly by who? By fellow Singaporeans?
Yeah, if a fellow Singaporean has an exit plan, most of us just react with “Okay, go lor.”

I feel there are a few categories of Singaporeans with an exit plan:

1. Married to a foreign spouse and wants to settle in spouse’s country.

2. Part of the LGBTQ community since their marriage isn’t legally recognised here or they experience discrimination and rather go overseas to places where it is rainbow friendly.

3. Complains about SG being too expensive, too pressurising, no nature, no freedom, no work-life balance, etc. Feels the grass is greener on the other side compared to “Stinkapore”. Some really do strive to get the opportunity to work aboard. And maybe some just keep ranting but make no effort to move overseas.

4. Does like & appreciate SG but after analysing various aspects, practically makes a decision to retire overseas for lower cost of living.

I think the whole “us vs them” boils down to what pass you’re on. If you’re on a work pass, it is accepted you’re here temporarily and will go back home eventually. If you converted to PR, it implies you are already committed to be here permanently instead of parachuting off when the opportunity arises which leads to SG losing its one resource which is people.
Yes, I can see that. Although it seems like a double-standard, the perception is that some PRs will just scoop off the cream and leave… like having your cake and eating it too.

I think that the culture here reinforces that perception — with the unshakable expectation that anyone who has an opportunity to take advantage of something, will take advantage of it… or else they are a fool.

TBH that culture has rubbed off on me over the decades, so in evaluating whether to apply for PR, I think purely in terms of WIFM because PR is like an engagement and SC is like a marriage… you can go forward but not backward, so better think twice! And, it’s not that I don’t have a heart for SG… I have lived here more than half of my life, how can I have no feeling? But I also know my place: an ang moh can never be truly accepted as a local in the minds of locals. That is just reality.
I think this is an individual thing. Yes, an ang moh will never be fully accepted. But the question is whether it matters to the said ang moh. Are you satisfied being accepted by your Asian family or do you yearn to drink beer with local uncles in the kopitiam. If it's the latter, then life here may not be very fulfilling :D

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Re: PR abuse

Post by malcontent » Wed, 03 Aug 2022 3:06 pm

x9200 wrote:
Wed, 03 Aug 2022 1:13 pm
NYY1 wrote:
Wed, 03 Aug 2022 9:38 am
While I don't disagree with anything you say about "permanent," to be fair the time and thinking under which some people here (in SG broadly) obtained PR was perhaps different from today? As I mentioned elsewhere, there may be a portion of 40-50 year olds that obtained PR decades ago and never had any intention to convert to SC. The difference now is that many of these people likely wouldn't be approved. Still, I wouldn't say they've "abused" anything even if they decide to move on or move back home.
I expect for vast majority of "Western" PRs the single citizenship allowed rule is why they don't even apply for SC. While I sort of understand the reason of such restrictions being in place it is still extremely prohibitive in making this next natural step and applying/acquiring SC.
Yes, giving up a large country like the US, Canada or Australia… or in the case of EU citizenship, many countries in exchange for one city… one climate, one Singapore. You’d better be be sure you’ll love tropical urban living for the rest of your life.

Coming from the US, I know a lot of people who couldn’t handle this weather, or even handle the high population density. They love the four seasons and wouldn’t be caught dead living in a city with this many people. I’ve always wondered if that adds to the number of SG citizen renouncements; I think the ratio of people living in the city versus country is about 70/30 in the US, not everyone is cut out for city life (and visa versa), even if they are born into it… and if you are one of them, you have no other choice but to migrate.
It’s not what happens to you, but how you react to it that matters ~ Epictetus

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Re: PR abuse

Post by PNGMK » Wed, 03 Aug 2022 6:42 pm

What is far worse than PR abuse is SC abuse. Rare but happens. The new SC retains his foreign passport for various reasons.
I not lawyer/teacher/CPA.
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Re: PR abuse

Post by MOCHS » Wed, 03 Aug 2022 7:45 pm

I’ve read about born & bred SCs acquiring dual-citizenship without surrendering the SG citizenship, never met one but Reddit has some that boast about it. Of course, I take Reddit with a grain of salt. If it was true, I am curious how it was done, not because I wanna do it but how did they manage to not get caught. Doubt anyone would share it openly. :P

Edit: Fixed a typo.
Last edited by MOCHS on Wed, 03 Aug 2022 8:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: PR abuse

Post by Pantsgrenadier » Wed, 03 Aug 2022 7:57 pm

MOCHS wrote:
Wed, 03 Aug 2022 7:45 pm
I’ve read oboist born & bred SCs acquiring dual-citizenship without surrendering the SG citizenship, never met one but Reddit has some that boast about it. Of course, I take Reddit with a grain of salt. If it was true, I am curious how it was done, not because I wanna do it but how did they manage to not get caught. Doubt anyone would share it openly. :P
I read somewhere that some Singaporeans may acquire other nationalities involuntarily, such as by birth for example. In those case as long as the person doesn't exercise his rights as a foreign national, the government may close one eye. Don't know how true is that though

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Re: PR abuse

Post by MOCHS » Wed, 03 Aug 2022 10:55 pm

The impression I got from Reddit was that they are born to SG parents, no second citizenship at birth to speak of but went overseas and managed to get dual citizenship on the sly and not getting caught by ensuring they use the correct passport.

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Re: PR abuse

Post by malcontent » Thu, 04 Aug 2022 12:48 am

MOCHS wrote:
Wed, 03 Aug 2022 7:45 pm
I’ve read about born & bred SCs acquiring dual-citizenship without surrendering the SG citizenship, never met one but Reddit has some that boast about it. Of course, I take Reddit with a grain of salt. If it was true, I am curious how it was done, not because I wanna do it but how did they manage to not get caught. Doubt anyone would share it openly. :P

Edit: Fixed a typo.
There have been several cases of Singaporeans who acquired US citizenship without renouncing. One was a girl who was on the same flight into SG as a friend of mine and she asked him which passport he thought she should use to enter Singapore. He had no idea and suggested she use her US passport. That was probably bad advice, but he didn’t stick around to find out what happened. I have heard that Singapore has started to actively detect such things, probably by matching the name and DOB combo, which is a pretty safe bet at being unique to a person — I heard the US government uses the same combination of info to catch tax cheats who don’t declare offshore income/assets.
It’s not what happens to you, but how you react to it that matters ~ Epictetus

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Re: PR abuse

Post by bro75 » Thu, 04 Aug 2022 6:27 pm

I don't think PR abuse is a thing. The government totally controls who is given PR and SC and can remove PR for any reason (they don't do this though except for criminals and those who are doing something against public policy such as the striking pilots and the academic who is influencing for a foreign country). The power is totally with the government and not the PR holder.

They also reject the SCs of long term PRs and reject the PR applications of children of 2 PRs (like our case). The fact that some PRs do not apply for SC is a known to the government they allow this. They do punish PR males renounce just before NS by not allowing them to work and live in Singapore in the future.

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Re: PR abuse

Post by sundaymorningstaple » Thu, 04 Aug 2022 7:03 pm

bro75 wrote:
Thu, 04 Aug 2022 6:27 pm
I don't think PR abuse is a thing. The government totally controls who is given PR and SC and can remove PR for any reason (they don't do this though except for criminals and those who are doing something against public policy such as the striking pilots and the academic who is influencing for a foreign country). The power is totally with the government and not the PR holder.

They also reject the SCs of long term PRs and reject the PR applications of children of 2 PRs (like our case). The fact that some PRs do not apply for SC is a known to the government they allow this. They do punish PR males renounce just before NS by not allowing them to work and live in Singapore in the future.
I beg to differ. PR abuse is rampant here. And I am not just talking about the NS issue. There are many people here who remain PRs here until such time as they want to retire or otherwise have potential reasons to return to their original country (e.g., family issues is a big one). Or they have been able to see the writing on the wall about the so-called utopia that Singapore like to present itself to the world as over the past 30 years. They may have local families but thinking if the little red dot suddenly goes south (due to a freak election result, for example) they can bail without to much issue. Also where else can you park your money so it is in a high Moody's rated investment paying 4.5~6.5% in CPF and if you bail, you can withdraw the whole thing lock, stock & barrel. Been done a lot over the years. As long, as you so aptly pointed out, you don't do anything illegal or agitate the masses, the government isn't going to rescind your PR without a valid reason as that would be akin to shooting themselves in the foot, considering the abysmally low TFR here.
SOME PEOPLE TRY TO TURN BACK THEIR ODOMETERS. NOT ME. I WANT PEOPLE TO KNOW WHY I LOOK THIS WAY. I'VE TRAVELED A LONG WAY, AND SOME OF THE ROADS WEREN'T PAVED. ~ Will Rogers

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Re: PR abuse

Post by jalanjalan » Fri, 05 Aug 2022 4:01 pm

My 2 cents:
I've only seen complaints about PR (and new citizen) "abuse" in online or chat forums, and, according to my true blue SC husband, it's mostly trolling. The PRs, wanna be PRs and recently converted SCs I know personally are all very sincere and happy to live in Singapore. Just my personal experience.

I was PR for a long time before I converted to SC, and I managed to integrate pretty well I think. Maybe ang mo aunties are too rare a sight in HDB heartlands for anyone to have a stereotype about me, or maybe they just couldn't care less what I look like, but all my neighbours, coffeeshop uncles and aunties, and everyone I interact with in the neighbourhood on a daily basis treat me exactly as they do everyone else. If anything, the aunties are a little extra friendly to me.

However, I'm sure the beer uncles would be most astonished if I asked to join them for a drink, not so much for my ang mo-ness but for my auntie-ness ;)

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Re: PR abuse

Post by malcontent » Sat, 06 Aug 2022 11:48 am

jalanjalan wrote:
Fri, 05 Aug 2022 4:01 pm
My 2 cents:
I've only seen complaints about PR (and new citizen) "abuse" in online or chat forums, and, according to my true blue SC husband, it's mostly trolling. The PRs, wanna be PRs and recently converted SCs I know personally are all very sincere and happy to live in Singapore. Just my personal experience.

I was PR for a long time before I converted to SC, and I managed to integrate pretty well I think. Maybe ang mo aunties are too rare a sight in HDB heartlands for anyone to have a stereotype about me, or maybe they just couldn't care less what I look like, but all my neighbours, coffeeshop uncles and aunties, and everyone I interact with in the neighbourhood on a daily basis treat me exactly as they do everyone else. If anything, the aunties are a little extra friendly to me.

However, I'm sure the beer uncles would be most astonished if I asked to join them for a drink, not so much for my ang mo-ness but for my auntie-ness ;)
I saw your other post about coming here soon after graduation and being here 25 years… very similar to my case… moved from the US in 1996 about a year after graduation to be with my S.O. as well, been living in SG ever since. Giving up Canadian citizenship had to be a tough decision, especially since unlike the US they don’t even tax you here.
It’s not what happens to you, but how you react to it that matters ~ Epictetus

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Re: PR abuse

Post by jalanjalan » Sat, 06 Aug 2022 4:55 pm

malcontent wrote:
Sat, 06 Aug 2022 11:48 am
I saw your other post about coming here soon after graduation and being here 25 years… very similar to my case… moved from the US in 1996 about a year after graduation to be with my S.O. as well, been living in SG ever since. Giving up Canadian citizenship had to be a tough decision, especially since unlike the US they don’t even tax you here.
Yes I took my time deciding. But Singapore has changed a lot since the mid 90s, and so has Canada. It's been almost a decade since I visited my hometown, and it no longer really feels like home. So for my case, it felt like a natural transition. Singapore is where I have spent almost all my adult life, and I'd be pretty lost in Canada now. Also, the only kind of ice I want to see anymore is the one with kachang and gula melaka on top.

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