What do you find more convenient here?

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Lisafuller
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Re: What do you find more convenient here?

Post by Lisafuller » Sun, 23 Apr 2023 5:21 pm

malcontent wrote:
Sun, 23 Apr 2023 11:18 am
Lisafuller wrote:
Sun, 23 Apr 2023 3:21 am
We'll never know for sure, but I strongly believe there was a racial component.
Of course it is impossible to know for sure, but I believe we should give people the benefit of the doubt (innocent until proven guilty). In my experience, some cops are very professional and others are real jerks. For this officer, the knee seemed to be his “go to” whenever faced with uncooperative detainees. The fact that a higher proportion of uncooperative detainees happen to be a particular race is not be enough to conclude that his actions were racially motivated. It very well could have simply been his (wrong) way of subduing detainees.
What a pity that George wasn't extended the same grace.

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Re: What do you find more convenient here?

Post by x9200 » Sun, 23 Apr 2023 7:54 pm

Lisafuller wrote:
Sat, 22 Apr 2023 11:15 pm
x9200 wrote:
Sat, 22 Apr 2023 11:42 am
Most individuals are responsible ones so they could own and carry guns but I see it similar to have the house locked. Majority would not rob your house, only some minority would but the house still needs to be locked. For the guns someone's live/health is at stake and clearly there is no good way to (pre)determine who is the responsible individual in that respect.
As a teenager I used to shoot small caliber sport riffle at shooting range and I liked it. I would probably like it even now but I still think all the dangers to have guns easily accessible in a typical society outweigh any possible benefits.
Yes, but the problem is that because guns are in the hands of some irresponsible individuals, everybody else has to have one to keep themselves safe.

What I think would be a better solution, and perhaps this may be easier said than done, is for the government to recall all firearms from civilians, and perhaps have them re-purposed for use in the military.
The police should keep them safe, what is the case anyway for most of the shootings. I mean, they fail of course, but this is not like the citizens themselves stepped in for majority of the cases. This is also pretty symptomatic, for what I believe the guys from NRA or other gun supporters always say - if they only had the guns they could defend themselves. I don't think it works that way.

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Re: What do you find more convenient here?

Post by x9200 » Sun, 23 Apr 2023 8:21 pm

Lisafuller wrote:
Sat, 22 Apr 2023 11:17 pm
x9200 wrote:
Sat, 22 Apr 2023 2:32 pm
malcontent wrote:
Fri, 21 Apr 2023 10:59 pm
I have had my fair share of run ins with the police, including bad ones where I got treated unfairly. Maybe if I wasn’t white I would assume that was the reason. But in every encounter with the police I was polite, cooperated and did not make any sudden (or dumb) moves — that is what I see happening in most cases that end badly, including George Floyd. They never show the footage of him resisting arrest, not cooperating and disregarding police instructions - - all of which happened… not that it justifies what the police did, but I guarantee he’d be alive today if he acted the way I would have in that situation.
What if somebody does not understand/comprehend the instructions? There was a case a few years ago, I believe we even discussed it on this board, they shot down an elderly Indian guy who didn't follow the instructions. He simply didn't understand English.

I don't even blame police in general. That's the part of this paranoia puzzle. Everybody may have a gun so they have to assume this is the case each time. Of course there should be no abuse but for the Floyd's case I have very mixed feelings.
I like to think that police are, for the most part upstanding individuals who work to keep the city safe.

At the same time however, I can't ignore some of the more blinding cases like that of George Floyd. I believe that there is definitely an issue of systemic racism, which, coupled with the unchecked power that is given to policemen, has led to a serious issue of mistrust and violence.
I think it may not be necessarily systemic. Just the outcome of the circumstances. There are always bad people in any social or professional group. Such people should never be policemen in the first place but some will inevitably be anyway. Gorge Floyd, what has happened should never happened to him, that's very clear, but this is not like he was some spotless and innocent good Samaritan or something. Higher crime rate for Blacks, the police emotionally numb working under constant threat of being shot plus the bad fruits abusing the power.

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Re: What do you find more convenient here?

Post by x9200 » Sun, 23 Apr 2023 8:35 pm

malcontent wrote:
Sat, 22 Apr 2023 11:49 pm
The US needs what they have here… swift, certain and strict punishments that fit the severity of the crime. Let’s be honest, it’s not gun control that keeps Singapore safe.

This is a lot like parenting - when you are inconsistent and don’t met out punishments when deserved, you get people who will test the limits and try their luck.

Singapore knows how to make examples out of people, and it’s nothing new — it has been happening since ancient times in the public square. I’m all for public flogging, and several states tried to introduce it after the Michael Faye incident here. In the US, criminals have more rights than victims. That has to change.
What makes lower crime rate is not necessarily severity but almost always inevitability of the punishment. This is I believe the key factor also for Singapore. Still there are some people who would try and if guns were accessible they would try with the guns too. How this River Valley stabbing could look like if the boy had access to the guns?

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Re: What do you find more convenient here?

Post by malcontent » Sun, 23 Apr 2023 10:56 pm

Lisafuller wrote:
Sun, 23 Apr 2023 5:21 pm
malcontent wrote:
Sun, 23 Apr 2023 11:18 am
Lisafuller wrote:
Sun, 23 Apr 2023 3:21 am
We'll never know for sure, but I strongly believe there was a racial component.
Of course it is impossible to know for sure, but I believe we should give people the benefit of the doubt (innocent until proven guilty). In my experience, some cops are very professional and others are real jerks. For this officer, the knee seemed to be his “go to” whenever faced with uncooperative detainees. The fact that a higher proportion of uncooperative detainees happen to be a particular race is not be enough to conclude that his actions were racially motivated. It very well could have simply been his (wrong) way of subduing detainees.
What a pity that George wasn't extended the same grace.
The biggest pity or all is that George refused to cooperate. If you watch the camera footage that came out post-trial it shows he clearly resisted arrest and refused to follow their instructions, repeatedly.

Another man on the scene was even shouting at George “just get in the car, you can’t win” - but he chose to ignore that advice. Again, nothing justifies what happened next, but knowing not all cops are good, it certainly motivates me to be extremely polite, humble and subservient during my encounters. I can imagine I could have had much worse encounters had I not. You just can’t expect every cop to be perfect, so why push your luck?
I know you think you understand what you thought I said but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant ~ Alan Greenspan

Lisafuller
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Re: What do you find more convenient here?

Post by Lisafuller » Sun, 23 Apr 2023 11:44 pm

x9200 wrote:
Sun, 23 Apr 2023 7:54 pm
Lisafuller wrote:
Sat, 22 Apr 2023 11:15 pm
x9200 wrote:
Sat, 22 Apr 2023 11:42 am
Most individuals are responsible ones so they could own and carry guns but I see it similar to have the house locked. Majority would not rob your house, only some minority would but the house still needs to be locked. For the guns someone's live/health is at stake and clearly there is no good way to (pre)determine who is the responsible individual in that respect.
As a teenager I used to shoot small caliber sport riffle at shooting range and I liked it. I would probably like it even now but I still think all the dangers to have guns easily accessible in a typical society outweigh any possible benefits.
Yes, but the problem is that because guns are in the hands of some irresponsible individuals, everybody else has to have one to keep themselves safe.

What I think would be a better solution, and perhaps this may be easier said than done, is for the government to recall all firearms from civilians, and perhaps have them re-purposed for use in the military.
The police should keep them safe, what is the case anyway for most of the shootings. I mean, they fail of course, but this is not like the citizens themselves stepped in for majority of the cases. This is also pretty symptomatic, for what I believe the guys from NRA or other gun supporters always say - if they only had the guns they could defend themselves. I don't think it works that way.
Yeah, if nobody has guns, nobody will need to defend them selves.

Lisafuller
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Re: What do you find more convenient here?

Post by Lisafuller » Sun, 23 Apr 2023 11:46 pm

x9200 wrote:
Sun, 23 Apr 2023 8:21 pm
Lisafuller wrote:
Sat, 22 Apr 2023 11:17 pm
x9200 wrote:
Sat, 22 Apr 2023 2:32 pm

What if somebody does not understand/comprehend the instructions? There was a case a few years ago, I believe we even discussed it on this board, they shot down an elderly Indian guy who didn't follow the instructions. He simply didn't understand English.

I don't even blame police in general. That's the part of this paranoia puzzle. Everybody may have a gun so they have to assume this is the case each time. Of course there should be no abuse but for the Floyd's case I have very mixed feelings.
I like to think that police are, for the most part upstanding individuals who work to keep the city safe.

At the same time however, I can't ignore some of the more blinding cases like that of George Floyd. I believe that there is definitely an issue of systemic racism, which, coupled with the unchecked power that is given to policemen, has led to a serious issue of mistrust and violence.
I think it may not be necessarily systemic. Just the outcome of the circumstances. There are always bad people in any social or professional group. Such people should never be policemen in the first place but some will inevitably be anyway. Gorge Floyd, what has happened should never happened to him, that's very clear, but this is not like he was some spotless and innocent good Samaritan or something. Higher crime rate for Blacks, the police emotionally numb working under constant threat of being shot plus the bad fruits abusing the power.
Yes, but there are a lot of systemic causes that lead to a higher crime rate for Black people. Lack of education, consequent inability to escape the poverty cycle, just to name a few.

Lisafuller
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Re: What do you find more convenient here?

Post by Lisafuller » Sun, 23 Apr 2023 11:47 pm

x9200 wrote:
Sun, 23 Apr 2023 8:35 pm
malcontent wrote:
Sat, 22 Apr 2023 11:49 pm
The US needs what they have here… swift, certain and strict punishments that fit the severity of the crime. Let’s be honest, it’s not gun control that keeps Singapore safe.

This is a lot like parenting - when you are inconsistent and don’t met out punishments when deserved, you get people who will test the limits and try their luck.

Singapore knows how to make examples out of people, and it’s nothing new — it has been happening since ancient times in the public square. I’m all for public flogging, and several states tried to introduce it after the Michael Faye incident here. In the US, criminals have more rights than victims. That has to change.
What makes lower crime rate is not necessarily severity but almost always inevitability of the punishment. This is I believe the key factor also for Singapore. Still there are some people who would try and if guns were accessible they would try with the guns too. How this River Valley stabbing could look like if the boy had access to the guns?
I shudder to think about what that might've looked like.

Lisafuller
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Re: What do you find more convenient here?

Post by Lisafuller » Sun, 23 Apr 2023 11:48 pm

malcontent wrote:
Sun, 23 Apr 2023 10:56 pm
Lisafuller wrote:
Sun, 23 Apr 2023 5:21 pm
malcontent wrote:
Sun, 23 Apr 2023 11:18 am


Of course it is impossible to know for sure, but I believe we should give people the benefit of the doubt (innocent until proven guilty). In my experience, some cops are very professional and others are real jerks. For this officer, the knee seemed to be his “go to” whenever faced with uncooperative detainees. The fact that a higher proportion of uncooperative detainees happen to be a particular race is not be enough to conclude that his actions were racially motivated. It very well could have simply been his (wrong) way of subduing detainees.
What a pity that George wasn't extended the same grace.
The biggest pity or all is that George refused to cooperate. If you watch the camera footage that came out post-trial it shows he clearly resisted arrest and refused to follow their instructions, repeatedly.

Another man on the scene was even shouting at George “just get in the car, you can’t win” - but he chose to ignore that advice. Again, nothing justifies what happened next, but knowing not all cops are good, it certainly motivates me to be extremely polite, humble and subservient during my encounters. I can imagine I could have had much worse encounters had I not. You just can’t expect every cop to be perfect, so why push your luck?
Fair enough, but at the same time, it was such a chaotic situation that you can't have expected him to behave calmly or rationally.

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Re: What do you find more convenient here?

Post by malcontent » Mon, 24 Apr 2023 12:25 am

Lisafuller wrote:
Sun, 23 Apr 2023 11:48 pm
malcontent wrote:
Sun, 23 Apr 2023 10:56 pm
Lisafuller wrote:
Sun, 23 Apr 2023 5:21 pm


What a pity that George wasn't extended the same grace.
The biggest pity or all is that George refused to cooperate. If you watch the camera footage that came out post-trial it shows he clearly resisted arrest and refused to follow their instructions, repeatedly.

Another man on the scene was even shouting at George “just get in the car, you can’t win” - but he chose to ignore that advice. Again, nothing justifies what happened next, but knowing not all cops are good, it certainly motivates me to be extremely polite, humble and subservient during my encounters. I can imagine I could have had much worse encounters had I not. You just can’t expect every cop to be perfect, so why push your luck?
Fair enough, but at the same time, it was such a chaotic situation that you can't have expected him to behave calmly or rationally.
It’s always a “charged situation” when it comes to dealing with the police. But there is a certain measure of deference you must have… once you’ve been nabbed, you keep your mouth shut and do what you’re told. I think a lot of people forget that resisting arrest is against the law.

Even if it’s not a knee to the neck, if you don’t cooperate they are well within their rights to tase you, lay you out face down on the concrete and restrain you in some very unpleasant ways. Ahem, no thanks… I will be cooperating in full.

Speaking of showing deference to the police, here is a great example of what not to do:

https://youtu.be/3lKwkn6JT74
I know you think you understand what you thought I said but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant ~ Alan Greenspan

Lisafuller
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Re: What do you find more convenient here?

Post by Lisafuller » Wed, 26 Apr 2023 10:34 pm

malcontent wrote:
Mon, 24 Apr 2023 12:25 am
Lisafuller wrote:
Sun, 23 Apr 2023 11:48 pm
malcontent wrote:
Sun, 23 Apr 2023 10:56 pm


The biggest pity or all is that George refused to cooperate. If you watch the camera footage that came out post-trial it shows he clearly resisted arrest and refused to follow their instructions, repeatedly.

Another man on the scene was even shouting at George “just get in the car, you can’t win” - but he chose to ignore that advice. Again, nothing justifies what happened next, but knowing not all cops are good, it certainly motivates me to be extremely polite, humble and subservient during my encounters. I can imagine I could have had much worse encounters had I not. You just can’t expect every cop to be perfect, so why push your luck?
Fair enough, but at the same time, it was such a chaotic situation that you can't have expected him to behave calmly or rationally.
It’s always a “charged situation” when it comes to dealing with the police. But there is a certain measure of deference you must have… once you’ve been nabbed, you keep your mouth shut and do what you’re told. I think a lot of people forget that resisting arrest is against the law.

Even if it’s not a knee to the neck, if you don’t cooperate they are well within their rights to tase you, lay you out face down on the concrete and restrain you in some very unpleasant ways. Ahem, no thanks… I will be cooperating in full.

Speaking of showing deference to the police, here is a great example of what not to do:

https://youtu.be/3lKwkn6JT74
It's good that you and me know that if we're ever caught in a situation like this, we'll do our very best to be cooperative and calm. Like I said, though, the same cannot be said about everyone, because everyone responds differently in high-pressure situations. One may have every intention to be cooperative, but may melt down in the face of such stress.

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Re: What do you find more convenient here?

Post by malcontent » Wed, 26 Apr 2023 11:53 pm

Lisafuller wrote:
Wed, 26 Apr 2023 10:34 pm
malcontent wrote:
Mon, 24 Apr 2023 12:25 am
Lisafuller wrote:
Sun, 23 Apr 2023 11:48 pm


Fair enough, but at the same time, it was such a chaotic situation that you can't have expected him to behave calmly or rationally.
It’s always a “charged situation” when it comes to dealing with the police. But there is a certain measure of deference you must have… once you’ve been nabbed, you keep your mouth shut and do what you’re told. I think a lot of people forget that resisting arrest is against the law.

Even if it’s not a knee to the neck, if you don’t cooperate they are well within their rights to tase you, lay you out face down on the concrete and restrain you in some very unpleasant ways. Ahem, no thanks… I will be cooperating in full.

Speaking of showing deference to the police, here is a great example of what not to do:

https://youtu.be/3lKwkn6JT74
It's good that you and me know that if we're ever caught in a situation like this, we'll do our very best to be cooperative and calm. Like I said, though, the same cannot be said about everyone, because everyone responds differently in high-pressure situations. One may have every intention to be cooperative, but may melt down in the face of such stress.
I see it like survival of the fittest - those who are cooperative and calm are more likely to survive an encounter with a bad cop. Check out the YouTube videos of the Karens and Kens of this world… probably just a matter of time. Do they deserve the bed they are making for themselves? Maybe not in the ideal world, but we clearly aren’t living in one.
I know you think you understand what you thought I said but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant ~ Alan Greenspan

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