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Employment Pass rejected, reasons?

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Employment Pass rejected, reasons?

Post by not_an_expat » Fri, 06 Feb 2015 2:58 am

I am a fresh graduate from National University of Singapore. I am offered a sales position at a MNC in the healthcare industry. The company told me that my EP application is rejected, reason given is regarding the fair employment issue. HR never mention details, dont think is quota issue as I have met most employees in similar positions or management in the company during the interview (some 8 hours assessment in a day to let you familiarise with the people/culture/job scope etc.) and they are Singaporeans.

Nationality: Malaysian
Years in Singapore: 4.5 years (extended by .5 year because NUS sent me overseas for a prestigious entrepreneurship program for a year)
Degree: NUS, Electrical Engineering
Base salary: S$2.8k
Other salary components: 1.3k travelling expenses + 17% of CPF contribution returned to me in cash since I am foreigner + great commissions

I know the base salary is lower than 3.3k but all my foreign friends graduated from NUS last year(2014) who are paid less than that amount got their EP approved. And it is pretty common that sales position's salary is lower than those with fixed income. I have rejected other job offers in engineering field with fixed monthly salary that ranges from 3k to 3.3k.

This company has appealed the EP application decision for me. From your experience, how long does it takes to hear from MOM again? and what happens if I got rejected for the appeal? Should I look for another job?

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Re: Employment Pass rejected, reasons?

Post by AngMoG » Fri, 06 Feb 2015 10:13 am

not_an_expat wrote:I am a fresh graduate from National University of Singapore. I am offered a sales position at a MNC in the healthcare industry. The company told me that my EP application is rejected, reason given is regarding the fair employment issue. HR never mention details, dont think is quota issue as I have met most employees in similar positions or management in the company during the interview (some 8 hours assessment in a day to let you familiarise with the people/culture/job scope etc.) and they are Singaporeans.

Nationality: Malaysian
Years in Singapore: 4.5 years (extended by .5 year because NUS sent me overseas for a prestigious entrepreneurship program for a year)
Degree: NUS, Electrical Engineering
Base salary: S$2.8k
Other salary components: 1.3k travelling expenses + 17% of CPF contribution returned to me in cash since I am foreigner + great commissions

I know the base salary is lower than 3.3k but all my foreign friends graduated from NUS last year(2014) who are paid less than that amount got their EP approved. And it is pretty common that sales position's salary is lower than those with fixed income. I have rejected other job offers in engineering field with fixed monthly salary that ranges from 3k to 3.3k.

This company has appealed the EP application decision for me. From your experience, how long does it takes to hear from MOM again? and what happens if I got rejected for the appeal? Should I look for another job?
"fair employment issue" may be that they failed to advertise the position for two weeks on the government job forum before finding that they cannot find locals to do the job, and offering it to you. That would be the first thing to check.

Also, the only thing that counts for EP/S-Pass is basic salary. Commission, traveling expenses (unless always paid regardless), etc. will not count. At that basic salary level, the company would be advised to also apply for S-Pass (just tick a box on the application form), which you would be more likely to get (if the company has remaining quota).

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Re: Employment Pass rejected, reasons?

Post by bgd » Fri, 06 Feb 2015 11:14 am

AngMoG wrote:
"fair employment issue" may be that they failed to advertise the position for two weeks on the government job forum before finding that they cannot find locals to do the job, and offering it to you. That would be the first thing to check.
I know someone in the same situation. Her EP was rejected because of the "fair employment issue". The company admitted they hadn't advertised the role on the job forum first. In her case there was no appeal so she is looking elsewhere.

Just sounds like local HR don't know their job - something that SMS has always said.

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Re: Employment Pass rejected, reasons?

Post by Wd40 » Sat, 07 Feb 2015 7:40 am

Dude, why do you want to get into "Sales for a healthcare industry" when you did Electrical Engineering from NUS? There are just too many Singaporeans who can do stuff like marketing and sales.

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Re: Employment Pass rejected, reasons?

Post by midlet2013 » Sat, 07 Feb 2015 11:26 am

How many people in this world and specifically in Singapore, have the choice to get the job they like ?

If he lost interest and just wanted to move to other areas and ditch engineering, then I guess MOM has a point. But if this is the only reasonable option he has to begin with, then its not really his fault.

Sadly, as foreigners with no experience, people should realize that one has to do a bit of shitty work before you can pick n choose.
Wd40 wrote:Dude, why do you want to get into "Sales for a healthcare industry" when you did Electrical Engineering from NUS? There are just too many Singaporeans who can do stuff like marketing and sales.

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Re: Employment Pass rejected, reasons?

Post by Wd40 » Sat, 07 Feb 2015 1:13 pm

Graduating from NUS, one of the top ranking universities in the world has to mean something? Imagine someone from IIT with BTech trying for sales job. If not Singapore, he should try elsewhere so as to not screw his career. Very few people can actually make a come back once they stray away into a different field.

Its a different matter if its a recession or something, like in 2001 after the dot com bust lots of techies lost their jobs and they had to take up jobs like call centres and tech support, but when the economy was back, some of them managed to switch back into tech, especially those from good universities and the bright ones. But many of the average ones didn't manage to do that, but atleast they have an excuse. Just like lot of wannabe Investment bankers who finished their MBA in 2008-2009 had to forgo their dreams. But now the economy is good, if someone is doing degree in electrical engineering from NUS and not able to secure a job in a related field, then something is very wrong.

EDIT: I just read again, OP has clearly mentioned that he has rejected Engineering jobs that pay way higher.

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Re: Employment Pass rejected, reasons?

Post by ecureilx » Sat, 07 Feb 2015 9:20 pm

midlet2013 wrote:How many people in this world and specifically in Singapore, have the choice to get the job they like ?

If he lost interest and just wanted to move to other areas and ditch engineering, then I guess MOM has a point. But if this is the only reasonable option he has to begin with, then its not really his fault.

Sadly, as foreigners with no experience, people should realize that one has to do a bit of shitty work before you can pick n choose.
Wd40 wrote:Dude, why do you want to get into "Sales for a healthcare industry" when you did Electrical Engineering from NUS? There are just too many Singaporeans who can do stuff like marketing and sales.
The privilege of doing work unrelated to the qualification evaporated ever since a lot of locals started to complain ..

Like 10 plus years ago MOM was strict, then they relaxed it .. then found out hard way it's not healthy for winning elections as well as a lot of talents taking up unrelated jobs left few picking for locals

Back to square 1

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Re: Employment Pass rejected, reasons?

Post by sundaymorningstaple » Sat, 07 Feb 2015 10:04 pm

Wd40 wrote:Graduating from NUS, one of the top ranking universities in the world has to mean something?
Surely you jest! :o One of the top ranking unis in Asia, granted, but the world? Who are you tryin' to suck up too? :lol: :lol:

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Re: Employment Pass rejected, reasons?

Post by Wd40 » Sat, 07 Feb 2015 11:05 pm

http://news.nus.edu.sg/highlights/7380- ... 8-subjects" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Employment Pass rejected, reasons?

Post by JR8 » Sun, 08 Feb 2015 12:00 am


According to the Straits Times?

[apols: I didn't read the linked article. But let's face it, outside of Asia almost no one has heard of NUS. You might also ask, how many of SGs leaders did their tertiary education here?]

Oh dear, NUS is not even in the top-50 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QS_World_U ... y_Rankings" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; , though NTU is there at no.39
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Re: Employment Pass rejected, reasons?

Post by zzm9980 » Sun, 08 Feb 2015 12:59 am

Why are we bull-shitting around about the school and other reasons?

OP, your salary offered was too low and the position is not in high demand necessitating foreign talent. MOM doesn't consider anything except your base salary. Comissions, cash in lieu of CPF, etc, do not count. The travel allowance *might* count if it is guaranteed as a fixed monthly cash payment in your contract. HR has to include it though in your EP app.

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Re: Employment Pass rejected, reasons?

Post by zzm9980 » Sun, 08 Feb 2015 1:01 am

JR8 wrote:

According to the Straits Times?

[apols: I didn't read the linked article. But let's face it, outside of Asia almost no one has heard of NUS. You might also ask, how many of SGs leaders did their tertiary education here?]

Oh dear, NUS is not even in the top-50 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QS_World_U ... y_Rankings" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; , though NTU is there at no.39

Uhm, it's number 22 in the only list on that page. Same list has NTU at 39.

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Re: Employment Pass rejected, reasons?

Post by JR8 » Sun, 08 Feb 2015 1:20 am

zzm9980 wrote: Uhm, it's number 22 in the only list on that page. Same list has NTU at 39.


Oops, my mistake! I had scanned the list at least twice, but perhaps missed it clustered between the Canadian and US flags featuring down the right hand side.
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Re: Employment Pass rejected, reasons?

Post by midlet2013 » Sun, 08 Feb 2015 5:51 pm

Trust me, there are a large number of IITians who take non-tech jobs. There are many who go to MBA straight out of IITs.

Although, I totally agree that people who risk changing fields right out of college in Singapore risk rejection. Why do Engineering when you want to do sales/marketing.

If you look at recent posts of Indian PR rejections, most who are getting it are in R&D or Medicine or areas where there is critical shortage of people, and not in IT and Banking.

People should first establish themselves in Singapore and then change. But some people hate their fields so much that they cant stand it even if it means EP/PR rejections.
Wd40 wrote:Graduating from NUS, one of the top ranking universities in the world has to mean something? Imagine someone from IIT with BTech trying for sales job. If not Singapore, he should try elsewhere so as to not screw his career. Very few people can actually make a come back once they stray away into a different field.

Its a different matter if its a recession or something, like in 2001 after the dot com bust lots of techies lost their jobs and they had to take up jobs like call centres and tech support, but when the economy was back, some of them managed to switch back into tech, especially those from good universities and the bright ones. But many of the average ones didn't manage to do that, but atleast they have an excuse. Just like lot of wannabe Investment bankers who finished their MBA in 2008-2009 had to forgo their dreams. But now the economy is good, if someone is doing degree in electrical engineering from NUS and not able to secure a job in a related field, then something is very wrong.

EDIT: I just read again, OP has clearly mentioned that he has rejected Engineering jobs that pay way higher.

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Re: Employment Pass rejected, reasons?

Post by JR8 » Sun, 08 Feb 2015 6:41 pm

@Midlelt. My 2c.
SG wants 'foreign talent', not foreign people coming here to take their first job and then learn how to do it. Doesn't matter how many paper qualifications you have.

Why go from Uni > MBA, and never have worked? How can you be a 'master' of something you've no actual experience of?

You can't get most jobs based on paper-based qualifications alone. The 'most' might become 'any' if it involves moving to SG seeking work, since you're qualified for nothing beyond perhaps an intern visa.

People should establish their careers, and then when they have unique and/or valuable talents to sell, then seek to profit from them in places where those talents are in short supply.

I'm sure the Law of Supply and Demand is taught as a part of MBA's.

I think a downside of taking an MBA is that's it's usually pitched as being 'the keys to the kingdom'. But there you are say 24/25, think you know everything, but have never worked. The trouble with that can be there are heaps of 20, or even 18 year olds that can do everything expected and required of them, that you haven't the first clue about (so how could you ever 'manage' them?). Plus they don't come with the ridiculously puffed-up salary expectations that most young MBA grads appear to have. So, if you're in that boat, you're f-f-f-f.... er, holed below the waterline aren't you?

The wiser route IMO, though less glamorous to an impressionable student... If you're heading towards management:

- graduate in a relevant skill.
- if applicable, take a professional qualification (ACCA/CIMA etc)
- get a job. Do it for a few years. Master it.
- hopefully become a supervisor, and perhaps later a manager.
- when, and only when, you're looking at moving up to director level, THEN do an MBA, preferably with your company's sponsorship/support, and only if it's 100% proven as a prerequisite, or sure hand up to greater things.
'Do it or do not do it: You will regret both' - Kierkegaard

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