Benefits outweigh the risks of mRNA vaccine?

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abbby
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Benefits outweigh the risks of mRNA vaccine?

Post by abbby » Thu, 12 Aug 2021 12:22 pm

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Re: Benefits outweigh the risks of mRNA vaccine?

Post by Myasis Dragon » Thu, 12 Aug 2021 10:44 pm

Anyone who has to even ask that question is an idiot. Of course the benefits clearly and obviously outweigh any possible risks. Hundreds of millions of doses, a miniscule number of side effects.

The USA is filled with right wing, trump loving idiots who think that the vaccine is some kind of liberal conspiracy. They are completely immune to facts.

I've reached the point where all I want to say is, "Fine. Catch the virus. Die. We'll clean up the mess later but my problem is solved. I don't have to put up with idiots like you."

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Re: Benefits outweigh the risks of mRNA vaccine?

Post by Max Headroom » Fri, 13 Aug 2021 8:16 am

I believe Abby may be referring to the lack of any sort of track record when it comes to mRNA vaccine use years down the road.

Let's face it, short-term, there will always be outliers, side-effects, regardless of what vaccine you use, or indeed any medical treatment you apply in general, tried and true included. Clearly though, as of the here and now, statistically, the benefits of mRNA outweigh the risks.

But going forward, this mRNA thing is a totally different ball of wax; nobody knows how it's going to play out in the years to come. With mRNA we did kind of rewire our immune system after all, as opposed to just giving it a taste of the offending antigen, dead or attenuated, which is how we used to vaccinate. No messing around with the immune system required previously, just giving it a leg-up sufficed. With mRNA, not so much.

I can't say it's keeping me awake at night, but I do find myself ruminating on it every now and again.

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Re: Benefits outweigh the risks of mRNA vaccine?

Post by Myasis Dragon » Fri, 13 Aug 2021 9:34 pm

Max, this statement, "With mRNA we did kind of rewire our immune system after all," is patently incorrect.

We have not "rewired" our immune system and that kind of disinformation is exactly the kind of thing that adds fuel to the anti-vaxxer fire.

Your immune system is the same as it was before.

With older vaccines, you introduce a killed virus into your bloodstream. Why killed? Obviously to keep the virus from multiplying and actually infecting you. Why injected? So that your immune system can recognize the proteins on the surface of the virus and generate an immune response to the virus.

With mRNA, RNA is introduced into your bloodstream. The RNA causes your body to generate the proteins that are found on the surface of the virus. Your immune system recognizes these proteins as foreign and generates an immune response to them.

Within a few days, your body breaks down the foreign mRNA and it no longer generates the proteins that cause an immune response in your body.

YOUR IMMUNE SYSTEM HAS NOT BEEN REWIRED.

mRNA vaccines are actually safer than traditional vaccines because you are not introducing a potentially deadly virus into the bloodstream.

mRNA vaccines do not integrate with your own body's genome. As noted, after protein production, the mRNA is broken down by your body. This is why you need a second shot.

mRNA vaccines are not "new". They have been manufactured and studied for decades. The widespread use of mRNA vaccine is new.

The biggest challenge with mRNA is the generation on unintended immune responses, and as in you know, in a very, very small percentage of users, there have been side effects, including unwanted immune responses.

So, please... please... do not spread disinformation that mRNA vaccines "rewire" your immune system. It's simply not true.

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Re: Benefits outweigh the risks of mRNA vaccine?

Post by x9200 » Sat, 14 Aug 2021 7:38 am

How the mRNA vaccine works with a bit more details:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41541- ... /figures/1

One extra thing to note: the mRNA does not even enter the nucleus were DNA is stored.

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Re: Benefits outweigh the risks of mRNA vaccine?

Post by smoulder » Sat, 14 Aug 2021 1:49 pm

I read somewhere that they are considering replacing the old flu jab with an mRNA jab instead. Possible that this type of vaccine will become more common.

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Re: Benefits outweigh the risks of mRNA vaccine?

Post by Myasis Dragon » Sun, 15 Aug 2021 3:25 am

smoulder wrote:
Sat, 14 Aug 2021 1:49 pm
I read somewhere that they are considering replacing the old flu jab with an mRNA jab instead. Possible that this type of vaccine will become more common.
It is certainly easier to manufacture than a killed virus vaccine, but it still has its problems with transport and storage, requiring extremely cold temperatures to stay viable.

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Re: Benefits outweigh the risks of mRNA vaccine?

Post by smoulder » Sun, 15 Aug 2021 8:23 am

Myasis Dragon wrote:
Sun, 15 Aug 2021 3:25 am
smoulder wrote:
Sat, 14 Aug 2021 1:49 pm
I read somewhere that they are considering replacing the old flu jab with an mRNA jab instead. Possible that this type of vaccine will become more common.
It is certainly easier to manufacture than a killed virus vaccine, but it still has its problems with transport and storage, requiring extremely cold temperatures to stay viable.
One of the reasons that they cited was also that this type is more effective. I think the current flu vaccine is only 50 percent effective.

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Re: Benefits outweigh the risks of mRNA vaccine?

Post by Lisafuller » Sun, 15 Aug 2021 7:26 pm

Myasis Dragon wrote:
Thu, 12 Aug 2021 10:44 pm
Anyone who has to even ask that question is an idiot. Of course the benefits clearly and obviously outweigh any possible risks. Hundreds of millions of doses, a miniscule number of side effects.

The USA is filled with right wing, trump loving idiots who think that the vaccine is some kind of liberal conspiracy. They are completely immune to facts.

I've reached the point where all I want to say is, "Fine. Catch the virus. Die. We'll clean up the mess later but my problem is solved. I don't have to put up with idiots like you."
Exactly, let natural selection weed out the dum dums.

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Re: Benefits outweigh the risks of mRNA vaccine?

Post by Lisafuller » Sun, 15 Aug 2021 7:28 pm

Myasis Dragon wrote:
Sun, 15 Aug 2021 3:25 am
smoulder wrote:
Sat, 14 Aug 2021 1:49 pm
I read somewhere that they are considering replacing the old flu jab with an mRNA jab instead. Possible that this type of vaccine will become more common.
It is certainly easier to manufacture than a killed virus vaccine, but it still has its problems with transport and storage, requiring extremely cold temperatures to stay viable.
True, however it’s efficacy makes up for its shortcomings in terms of storage and transport.

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Re: Benefits outweigh the risks of mRNA vaccine?

Post by BBCDoc » Sun, 22 Aug 2021 2:34 am

smoulder wrote:
Myasis Dragon wrote:
Sun, 15 Aug 2021 3:25 am
smoulder wrote:
Sat, 14 Aug 2021 1:49 pm
I read somewhere that they are considering replacing the old flu jab with an mRNA jab instead. Possible that this type of vaccine will become more common.
One of the reasons that they cited was also that this type is more effective. I think the current flu vaccine is only 50 percent effective.

I did my PhD next to the WHO Influenza centre, which created the vaccine seed stock each year.

The global team have to guess which influenza strains will cause problems for the northern and Southern Hemispheres each year, and pick 3 of them to combine into the annual vaccine.

They then only have a short time to grow the vaccine combo in eggs and send them out to the vaccine manufacturers.

Most years the data is accurate and they get the vaccine combo right and it works well. Some years they get it wrong and the vaccine has poor efficacy. Funnily enough, it sometimes causes mild flu side effects.

The flu vaccine is this ‘different’ every year and does not have the luxury of being tested like conventional vaccines, not even to the level of the COVID vaccines.

I do hope the mRNA vaccines can become a standard for influenza vaccine development to improve the accuracy and efficacy.


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Re: Benefits outweigh the risks of mRNA vaccine?

Post by x9200 » Sun, 22 Aug 2021 7:34 am

I wonder why this whole process utilizing mRNA has to take place inside human body and not in vitro with some pre-cultured cells. mRNA is sensitive. I expect the gross of the current storage and other issues, the need to protect it before it enters the cell, could be eliminated this way.

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Re: Benefits outweigh the risks of mRNA vaccine?

Post by Myasis Dragon » Sun, 22 Aug 2021 11:32 am

x9200 wrote:
Sun, 22 Aug 2021 7:34 am
I wonder why this whole process utilizing mRNA has to take place inside human body and not in vitro with some pre-cultured cells. mRNA is sensitive. I expect the gross of the current storage and other issues, the need to protect it before it enters the cell, could be eliminated this way.
That's a very interesting question. Perhaps BBCDoc can chime in... make the proteins external to the body and inject them instead of injecting mRNA to make proteins.

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Re: Benefits outweigh the risks of mRNA vaccine?

Post by BBCDoc » Sun, 22 Aug 2021 1:32 pm

The mRNA uses cells as a manufacturing/ photocopier system, giving instructions to make the virus proteins.

If you make it outside the body, you need a bioreactor, and the cells used are usually tumor cells to convert the mRNA into protein.

You then have to run a massive scale purification process to isolate the protein for vaccination, and develop formulation to stabilise the protein for vaccination. The stabilisers also need to be adjusted to reduce side effects.

By instead putting the mRNA into a form that can directly be injected, you can skip a lot of this process, that’s why it is a game changer. The mRNA is fragile compared to protein, hence more effort for cold chain.

Can spend hours talking about this…


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Re: Benefits outweigh the risks of mRNA vaccine?

Post by x9200 » Sun, 22 Aug 2021 2:33 pm

Thanks BBCDoc. Makes sense.
I wonder if one day we may still see it outside the body using on chip (microfluidic) bio reactors with all the components (separation etc.) integrated. With dynamics of new strains appearing every few months this should help to address the issue. Hi mix lower volume scenario.

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