"I Think" you are beginning to sound like you have a permanent case of PMS.
Well, this is an improvement even if it is misogynistic. Better it is stated as an opinion rather than as fact, no matter how demeaning it is. Where did this royal highness crap come from SMS?
QRM: I'm not irritable. Is it too much to ask that people refrain from speaking of their religious beliefs as facts? It's a hard enough topic to tackle on a forum, why not level the playing field ?
Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 10:50 pm Post subject: Re: ...
ringo100 wrote:
I find it fascinating that in the 21st century there is still a large number of educated people who hold on to myth and folk law with such passion.
Thankfully, there is a clear correlation between educating the masses and the abandonment of religion.
Fortunately it is possible to appreciate the cultural value in reading stories about Zeus, Mohammed and the Trinity, without having to believe them.
Does anyone out there still believe in the Tooth Fairy or Father Christmas, or is that just too silly?
I live studied and worked in London for decades and I don’t know a single person that goes to Church.
Here in Singapore there’s a new church popping up on every corner. Is the income to fund all these buildings coming from emotionally challenged people, who hand over their hard earn cash in the hope of a better life by blindly believing biblical myths?
I realize that Singapore is only one or two generation away from third world thinking.
You can still see it almost daily in the paper that one person or another has paid a fortune to con men for black magic stones, or spiritual faith healers.
That’s what bothers me is how religion has tapped into this gullibility. They don’t present religion as a means to discover the origins of our social structures, or the interconnection between the modern major faiths. If it was used as a means to show how we are all united in some way it would save a lot of bloodshed we see today.
Your cultural arrogance and arrogance in general rivals that of Superglide's.
Sadly, some people see arrogance as a valuable trait.
However, reading the posts on here prompts me to think that some just don't have the ability to word their thoughts in a meaningful and constructive manner.
And others just love to dangle the bait in the hope of a good 'battle of the posters', whether good, bad or downright ugly ! _________________ 'Are you trying to tempt me because I come from the land of plenty?'
Your cultural arrogance and arrogance in general rivals that of Superglide's.
Sadly, some people see arrogance as a valuable trait.
However, reading the posts on here prompts me to think that some just don't have the ability to word their thoughts in a meaningful and constructive manner.
And others just love to dangle the bait in the hope of a good 'battle of the posters', whether good, bad or downright ugly !
These open forums are exactly that, open to all views and opinions, every one from all walks of life can chip in with their own unique viewpoint.
The fact that that it does not fall in line with some peoples views should be actively encouraged.
If you find it difficult to accept things from a different perspective then maybe you have been in Singapore for to long.
You feel that it is acceptable to rip off emotionally vulnerable people? Faith healers, fungshui masters, fairground gypsy, priest, who asks for money from people with false promises is in my opinion wrong.
A devil's advocate takes the opposing view, an arrogant person is presumptuous and overbearing, defending his assumptions which he defends as 'opinion'. _________________ - Thank God for Darwin -
A devil's advocate takes the opposing view, an arrogant person is presumptuous and overbearing, defending his assumptions which he defends as 'opinion'.
Assumption, opinion, tomARto, tomaAto, call it what you like its still my view on the subject, and here is another view/opinion/belief/assumption/judgement.
I was in Macdonald and was told to take a seat and wait for my food (that’s another whole thread its called “fast” food for a reason), I sat next to your typical happy clapper type, bespectacled, Laura Ashley skirt, comfortable shoes and no doubt ironed underpants. She was using a highlighter pen on the Bible
When asked, she said she was studying the Bible and was looking into the Annunciation of Mary, I asked her why did she think Angel Gabriel went on to help Mohammed, She looked totally blank and asked who is Mohammed ?
She was probably able to recite from memory all the verses at a snap of a finger, she knows so much and yet so little
The religious education emphasis is wrong, how are supposed to get on with everyone when people are so blinkered and cannot see the bigger picture.
As I left, I asked if Adam and Eve had only their own children, how did they populate the world? Not very PC I know, but I left her to chew on that thought while eating her fillet of fish.
You are quite a bore, first you denigrate Singaporeans, insulting them, more like and now you have your lovely little McD's anecdotes.
Possibly you are a legend. In your own hand.
(Oh, I studied in Switzerland and met quite a few British people who went to church) Nice people as well, not at all daft as you describe them. _________________ - Thank God for Darwin -
You are quite a bore, first you denigrate Singaporeans, insulting them, more like and now you have your lovely little McD's anecdotes.
Possibly you are a legend. In your own hand.
(Oh, I studied in Switzerland and met quite a few British people who went to church) Nice people as well, not at all daft as you describe them.
Who said she was Singaporean? Where is the insult? My view applies to any country/religion/subject where parrot style regurgitory teaching is used at the expense of lateral exploration and creative thinking.
I still stick with the spirit of open forum dialogue without resorting to throwing personal insults to other posters that don’t follow my train of thought.
Like I previously said people get too serious, so on a less serious note and still in keeping with the faith thread,
Imagine Singtel came knocking on your door and threaten if you don’t sign up with them you will suffer searing pain along the lines of nuts, razor blades and lemon juice? This would be totally unacceptable, yet our Jehovah witnesses friends can knock on my door and say that if I don’t follow their teaching, a whole world of hate will be heading my way, It would be so bad, the Singtel lemon combo, would be like a walk in the park, I mean what kind of way is that to recruit people and do we really want that sort of thinking to be left unchecked?
Who said she was Singaporean?
I didn't say that you referred to the lady as Singaporean - get your readig glasses on
Where is the insult?
Here:
Here in Singapore there’s a new church popping up on every corner. Is the income to fund all these buildings coming from emotionally challenged people, who hand over their hard earn cash in the hope of a better life by blindly believing biblical myths?
I realize that Singapore is only one or two generation away from third world thinking.
You can still see it almost daily in the paper that one person or another has paid a fortune to con men for black magic stones, or spiritual faith healers.
I still stick with the spirit of open forum dialogue without resorting to throwing personal insults to other posters that don’t follow my train of thought.
That's because other posters may not be as belligerent and insulting as you
Like I previously said people get too serious, so on a less serious note and still in keeping with the faith thread,
... our Jehovah witnesses friends can knock on my door and say that if I don’t follow their teaching, a whole world of hate will be heading my way
Don't open the door or tell them how you feel if you must, but labeling a whole country with derogatory comments is what you stoop to and then back off in shock indignation that someone has called you up on it.
If your writing style was worse then you could really be Superglide, the same generalisations and attacks followed by 'Oh, you know me. Whimper, whimper.
I'll rest this dscussion from my side now, have fun playing with yourself. (Verbally,of course)
The main problem with discussions about God, I believe, is that we talk about 'him' as if he were external to us. If we understood 'God' in the same way we understand 'humanity', the view shifts immediately.
Humanity is much bigger than any individual human being, yet every single individual human being is an important component of humanity. Each of us carries within ourselves the essence of what humanity is, but no individual can claim to speak for humanity as a whole.
In the same way, there IS something bigger than each of us, which we tend to call 'God'. Yet there would be no God if individual beings did not exist to ponder what God is. Each of us carries the spark of divinity within, yet no individual can claim to speak for God or know his mind.
And if God were truly God, he would be vast enough to absorb the 'rightness' of each of our views. So SMS would indeed 'go to' or already be in heaven. Ozchick indeed has courage to believe, Turtle has equal courage to not believe, and Andy's (beautifully said) ten commandments would be wholeheartedly endorsed.
God does not need to be 'right' and does not need to judge anyone 'wrong'. It's we humans who have need of the concepts of right and wrong, good and bad, heaven and hell. We make sense of the world through the mental construct of dualities but this does not mean dualities really exist. Is there really such a thing as hot and cold, light and darkness? Not really, we just need one to understand the meaning of its opposite.
Humanity does not take sides, but embraces all who are human. There is no right and wrong about being male or female, young or old, black or white. Neither does God take sides and pronounce one religion (which includes the religion of unbelief or any other belief system) right and another wrong, but instead embraces all souls.
Still, just as human will fight human and thus humanity remains divided, so soul will fight soul and religion continues to divide us. This tension is necessary for evolution and growth, and part of the dynamic of life. It is not to be resented and questioned, but to be celebrated with awe and wonder.
Trust me on this. I must be right because I'm Catholic.
I've read this a few times since you wrote it W.I.M.H. and I think I've managed to sqeeze it into my tiny brain now. I reckon you've been here before ......................mm..and it's food for thought no doubt.....does it mean that I'm Godlik?! Cos I feel a spark of divinity...is it something like a hunger pain but happier ? Yeah this 'me myself and God' thing is a bit of alright ! _________________ 'Are you trying to tempt me because I come from the land of plenty?'
Here in Singapore there’s a new church popping up on every corner. Is the income to fund all these buildings coming from emotionally challenged people, who hand over their hard earn cash in the hope of a better life by blindly believing biblical myths?
It’s a question. If someone replies “ The local bishop is a bit of dab hand at black jack and reinvested the winnings in the new church” then I have learned something new.
People who hand over hard cash to the local church in the hope of a plasma TV in heaven are being taken advantage of. No mass insults there?
Third world thinking.
3rd world customs and tradition is a tourism selling point, but that’s all they are, a tradition. I don’t think a single Maypole dancer really believes he will be more virile after his little jiggle,
Here in Singapore If someone sold magic dust with a guarantee they are made from dragons scrotum hairs he will probably be able to make a few sales. It’s a fact, I regularly read it in the press.
To insult the whole country you imply that everyone here will be queuing at the stall? If so then yes this island is full of inbred retards and deserves a life of banjo playing.
Most Singaporeans will not join the Q, but for the few that will, they are the ones you should worry about. Rattle your Sabre at those who set up the stalls
That's because other posters may not be as belligerent and insulting as you
Or they have read and digested what I was saying before whipping out the jodhpurs and mounting Mr. High Horse.
....but labeling a whole country with derogatory comments is what you stoop to and then back off in shock indignation that someone has called you up on it.
I still stick with and believe in my original views unless some one can prove otherwise. So far no blanket wide labling occured, unless you are saying all Singaporeans Q at magic stalls, and go to church to pay for a deluxe ocean view suite in heaven.
If your writing style was worse then you could really be Superglide, the same generalisations and attacks followed by 'Oh, you know me. Whimper, whimper.
I take it you don’t agree with Superglides views, just because he may not have the patient or ability ( could be a case of autism or dyslexia ) to express himself in words, he is an instant leper
I'll rest this dscussion from my side now, have fun playing with yourself. (Verbally,of course)
Like wise I rest, and as to playing with myself (Verbally, of course) this will result in instant blindness and tan like a tandori chicken after the hot roasting in hell, as our learnered religious folk insist will be the case.
Last edited by QRM on Tue May 06, 2008 3:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
This little debate kind of reminds me, of politics and the yard stick.....when one say's he is 100% labour and for the workers, yet steals everything, and gives them nothing, reminds me of Tony Blair....and we have Maggie Thatcher that also promised everything, and again delivered nothing, however he son did alright out of her connections.
Politics and religion for me, is one of the same...although i saw the light long ago! Faith starts within oneself and not in other people, politics or religion, the faith of humanity is exactly, that.
Although I do see, the ones, that maybe blinded, by the light, and the aura of others, the trickery, and deceit, is all around us, not all can see it, because they want to believe in something, anything, will do, even if its a football team, and here we can draw parallels.
I was reading a fair deal on psychology, and how, most people are open to suggestive subliminal remarks, when suffering stress or in need of a break, from the social pressures, that surround us.
Many that are struggling in life, or are grieving for lost ones, become vulnerable, and discontented, looking for a thread of hope, of which many will take advantage of.
I have nothing really against religion, it serves several purposes in life, although harmony of the human race is not one of them.
Coming from the UK, and feeling everything is not equal, and was never meat to be, in a Country ruled by royalty and those endowed with lands has rewards, for their empiric rule, to serve the king or queen, is a difficult indoctrinate to shed, in the 21st century, primitive thinking is all around us, and therefore cannot be directed at one country alone.
Many are blind to trickery and deceit, it's like a magicians that show, there professionalism, some will really believe in magic, until convinced otherwise, the more primitive and uneducated, may never figure it out...after all IQ, is supposed to be, the measure of intelligence.
Of which I, have my doubts, because i may not have the experience or routine of solving, these puzzles in books doesn't make me less intelligent, in my book, all it does, is point out, that i have not gained routine in solving the issues at hand.
And this may also be adopted by faith, and humanity, many problems really do exist and the powers of B, have a tight hold, on the majority, which was recruited in the dark ages, with belief.
We do see, how churches around the world start to crumble, and how indoctrination is used in several faiths, with new up to date, marketing techniques to change, the outlook of the Church, and to build something powerful, like a pyramid, it caters, for the needs and wants of people, just like any other business model.
But I also see, a good social side, to meeting others, its kind of a brotherhood, secret society, cult, with one aim....although the followers, only ask questions, when it doesn't go there way of liking.
Like the yard stick and politics, its not easy to say, were the majority cross over from one to the other, but it is happening all the time, until the deceit is brought into the open, then followers, stop voting or attending.
It is without a doubt the human weakness, to follow Shepard, without any good reason to, in the hope of something better, not all are satisfied just like consumers....that are blinded, by marketing techniques, for bad quality products.
Business is not very much different, it takes a long while before meeting the partners you have faith in, but its all about providing the wants and needs of others, to make them satisfied....have faith, that you will get good value for money and not be cheated.
So I say except what is there, if ones needs are served and people are satisfied, it would be challenging of anyone, to start saying our product is better, believe in this, that, or the other, but not religion...
Its not wrong for disbelievers, to deliver primitive thoughts and base it all on 3rd world thinking, its basically not the issue, the UK have millions of Church followers, like other Countries, although it is my belief, it needs to be better regulated.
I had visited some new age Church in UK, with a Chinese friend who was a believer, and i was totally shocked, what i saw inside, it was nothing more than a theatrical show, of screaming and crying, and people falling around, in trance like states, my belief, is that the majority of actors, were involved in the cult like practice and brainwashing, which also disturbed the Chinese believer.
My doors are open to any religious faiths, because i accept all, with open hands, and use parts of each faith, that make me a better person, it satisfies me and fulfils my needs, because i am apart of gods creation, not the ones preaching updated storey books, to suit the 21st century.
My belief is that, living is hell so death must be heaven, and I often ask, why I see so many sufferings around the world, no matter how much faith one has, the natural elements will throw back 10 fold, for the damage humans make on the planet earth which is protected by forces beyond our Control.
One can call it the balacing act of the planets survival, against greed of humans...having faith in god, is not going to help, because god, wiped out the human race before, and it will happen again, without question, but not in our life time.
All the wars and misunderstandings are for what? power to lead others, not to embrace lives, kill the opposition in the name of god.
Evolution must be understood, and not humiliated, because one appears to be genetically more advanced, than the other, in terms of education, or cultural up bringing....survival instincts are more important to life, than those sitting in the arm chairs, just making comments.
When god strikes, he strikes with vengence, and for unknown reasons, to inflict suffering, and i'm sure he doesn't pull out straws, our destiny and time machine, maybe well mapped out at birth, who knows.
My point is, that we can all relate to death and violence and we all shed the same tears, it has nothing to do, with 3rd world thinking, in my opinion, it is probably more to do with superiority complexes and egos of human kind...of which, one day, they may be reminded of, when, it is their time to suffer, although the historians would be out of work, if we wasn't reminded of the power struggle and superiority of human kind.
I would much rather love my neighbour, no matter what colour, race or physical form, than indulge in competition of I'm better than them, a superior race is one of harmony, and will outlive, the biggot any day of the week.
Although sadly politics and religions are the focal point of rule, on a global scale, it is better to protect the sheep from the wolves in my opinion. Wolves? again we have many kinds on the planet!
What the debate has done for me, is to open my eyes, to the bredth of opinions, of which i was aware of, and reminds me, that my ego is better, toned down, than up, if I wish to maintain my faith within myself for humanity.
WIMH piece is very much my own opinion in many ways, and is also why i see, the external actions of humans like a movie, or a dream state...when i look at my cat, i say to myself CAT, who named you CAT, humans did of course.
Then I imagine being a CAT, and think well if i was to look at a flower, from a CATS point of view, it wouldn't be called anything, it would just be a reflection of light, like what we see around us.
I was showing the image of a ghost in a lift, on another thread, to my wife, who became so scared, because of her belief in ghosts. I also have a belief, that life after death may linger for a while, although the mind is so powerful, it can actually take control of the person it is in, and do unprecitable actions, the church may see it has possession of good or evil, look at stigmata, still being researched and many fakes found, however the mind is capable of powerful thoughts of communication, of which i have also experienced in a strange and confused way, of perception, which lasted several years, and just disappeared, has quickly has it arrived.
Was it brought on by emotion, stress, no one knows, but several close to me, have seen the proof, no matter, what wave length we travel on, energy is energy, and the opposite is death...and i can relate living to hell, in my life time, only because i looked and experienced hell many times around me, did my heart and soul suffer the shock of humanity.
I say shock of humanity because of living life outside of my protected shell of ignorance, to the suffering of others worse off than myself.
A storm that takes 15000 lives, in a day, tells me, that humans will lose, the battle, against the elements and the universe will repair itself, that is gods creation, that's what i have faith in, I am a part of the universe, and my destiny is mapped out, how i get there is my choice. _________________ http://www.drinkingvinegar.com
Last edited by ksl on Tue May 06, 2008 4:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
Here in Singapore there’s a new church popping up on every corner. Is the income to fund all these buildings coming from emotionally challenged people, who hand over their hard earn cash in the hope of a better life by blindly believing biblical myths?
It’s a question. If someone replies “ The local bishop is a bit of dab hand at black jack and reinvested the winnings in the new church” then I have learned something new.
People who hand over hard cash to the local church in the hope of a plasma TV in heaven are being taken advantage of. No mass insults there?
Third world thinking.
3rd world customs and tradition is a tourism selling point, but that’s all they are, a tradition. I don’t think a single Maypole dancer really believes he will be more virile after his little jiggle,
Here in Singapore If someone sold magic dust with a guarantee they are made from dragons hairs he will probably be able to make a few sales. It’s a fact, I do regularly read it in the press.
To insult the whole country you imply that everyone here will be queuing at the stall? If so then yes this island is full of retards and deserves a life of banjo playing.
Most Singaporeans will not join the Q, but for the few that will, they are the ones you should worry about. Rattle your Sabre at those who set up the stalls
That's because other posters may not be as belligerent and insulting as you
Or they have read and digested what I was saying before whipping out the jodhpurs and mounting Mr. High Horse.
....but labeling a whole country with derogatory comments is what you stoop to and then back off in shock indignation that someone has called you up on it.
I still stick with and believe in my original views unless some one can prove otherwise. So far no blanket wide labling occured, unless you are saying all Singaporeans Q at magic stalls, and go to church to pay for a delux ocean view suite in heaven.
If your writing style was worse then you could really be Superglide, the same generalisations and attacks followed by 'Oh, you know me. Whimper, whimper.
I take it you don’t agree with Superglides views, just because he may not have the patient or ability ( could be a case of autism or dyslexia ) to express himself in words, he is an instant leper
I'll rest this dscussion from my side now, have fun playing with yourself. (Verbally,of course)
Like wise I rest, and as to playing with myself (Verbally, of course) will result in instant blindenss and hot roasting in hell, as our learnered religious folk insist is true.
I'm with cutiebutie on this. QRM, perhaps you don't mean it but your tone is very insulting. Instead of a 'to each his own' approach -- you go out of your way to be waspish and snarky. Great if you're a talk show host, not so great if you are trying to engender dialogue.
I've read this a few times since you wrote it W.I.M.H. and I think I've managed to sqeeze it into my tiny brain now. I reckon you've been here before ......................mm..and it's food for thought no doubt.....does it mean that I'm Godlik?! Cos I feel a spark of divinity...is it something like a hunger pain but happier ? Yeah this 'me myself and God' thing is a bit of alright !
Read it a few times eh? Even I don't take myself that seriously! Ok ok I'm honoured, and hope it's not just because the rooster is not in town.
Yes I've been there many times. I realise that I always come back to the same place but each time, I know better where I am. I've also learnt that I had to question EVERYTHING and build my own truth up from scratch. Only then could I really own it and believe it.
Hmm, will leave you to yourself and God and the divine spark now.
I've also learnt that I had to question EVERYTHING and build my own truth up from scratch. Only then could I really own it and believe it.
Yeah today's scientists aren't working hard enough ! Why do we all have to learn from 'trial and error' and experience ?! In these enlightened times why can't we bequeath our knowledge and experiences to the ones we leave behind. It should be 'tranferable' !
Yes folks you read it here first ! This should be possible just as walking on the moon was possible.
Ooh the mind boggles....maybe my knowlege could go to the highest bidder...mm..yeah so who wants to be able to recite the states of America in alphabetical order ?! Yep, I could pass that on for $10SG or $8AUD wherever I happen to keel over !
He he ... Alaska, California, Colorado, Connecticut ............................
Or the lyrics to songs of the 60sand 70s- got LOTS of those in my tiny brain...la la la la....... _________________ 'Are you trying to tempt me because I come from the land of plenty?'
I've also learnt that I had to question EVERYTHING and build my own truth up from scratch. Only then could I really own it and believe it.
Yeah today's scientists aren't working hard enough ! Why do we all have to learn from 'trial and error' and experience ?! In these enlightened times why can't we bequeath our knowledge and experiences to the ones we leave behind. It should be 'tranferable' !
Yes folks you read it here first ! This should be possible just as walking on the moon was possible.
Ooh the mind boggles....maybe my knowlege could go to the highest bidder...mm..yeah so who wants to be able to recite the states of America in alphabetical order ?! Yep, I could pass that on for $10SG or $8AUD wherever I happen to keel over !
He he ... Alaska, California, Colorado, Connecticut ............................
Or the lyrics to songs of the 60sand 70s- got LOTS of those in my tiny brain...la la la la.......
60's & 70's music, now ya talking...how those emotional times kick in whenever i hear " Just my imagination" the smooching on the dance floor, with a feeling of romance blowing in the wind, although the circumstance left much to be desired.
http://www.palacebarracksmemorialgarden.org/KHKRH.htm _________________ http://www.drinkingvinegar.com
Boy are the folks in Alabama & Arkansas gonna be upset!
Oh hells bells ! Yeah and Arizona...RIGHT ! Stick them on the bathroom wall and re learn the b_________s ! Jeesh.................I keep making these mistakes SMS.....not just typing errors but all sorts of stuff ! See ! That'll learn me - I stop eating chocolate to try and do YOUR latest trick and my brain shrivels to mush....sigh..... _________________ 'Are you trying to tempt me because I come from the land of plenty?'
A devil's advocate takes the opposing view, an arrogant person is presumptuous and overbearing, defending his assumptions which he defends as 'opinion'.
60's & 70's music, now ya talking...how those emotional times kick in whenever i hear " Just my imagination" the smooching on the dance floor, with a feeling of romance blowing in the wind, although the circumstance left much to be desired.
http://www.palacebarracksmemorialgarden.org/KHKRH.htm
You've lost me ......................"Just my imagination?"
And this link ? Sorry ksl.....trying to connect here but can not lah..............
_________________ 'Are you trying to tempt me because I come from the land of plenty?'
60's & 70's music, now ya talking...how those emotional times kick in whenever i hear " Just my imagination" the smooching on the dance floor, with a feeling of romance blowing in the wind, although the circumstance left much to be desired.
http://www.palacebarracksmemorialgarden.org/KHKRH.htm
You've lost me ......................"Just my imagination?"
And this link ? Sorry ksl.....trying to connect here but can not lah..............
Ooops Sorry my fault, I was day dreaming at the time...back in the 60's I joined up in the military, so the 6o's music for me, brings back many memories some good some bad...in the early 70's I spent time in Northern Ireland.
So when i hear the music from that era, I think of the time, after working a 24 hr shift..half asleep, smooching away to "Just my imagination, running away with me" Temptations I think it was, in our local disco, the size of a double bedroom, with a handful of local talent, it was at a time when my marriage was on the rocks, and i couldn't do anything about it.
Its kind of living in different spheres of life all at the same time, the next minute, one is holding the head of a mate, because he's just been whacked by a sniper...
The memorial was of a few people, that got whacked and a few other mates.... So 60's and 70's music brings up quite a few emotions for me, but mostly i can say, its an era i loved, for all that went on, in the world..I met some real lovely people, that risked their lives, for peace and many of them Irish too....When i visit that site....I think what a sad old world we live in, history just keeps repeating itself, over and over, there is no end, because the movie we see, through our eyes...is the same...for all generations, although we only get to see, what we look for!
I know its a little confusing, so I don't expect you to fully grasp, my meaning, but I'm sure SMS and maybe a few oldies will. _________________ http://www.drinkingvinegar.com
Posted: Sat May 10, 2008 5:37 am Post subject: Re: Faith
ksl wrote:
Do you believe that in general it's all down to human instinct, of knowing what is right and what is wrong?
I agree in a similar sense. I believe in God, but I don't go to church. I stopped, after so many stories of abuses by the church, just like you talked about. I also felt that the church, though I believe is a great place of worship, hasn't being giving the right messages to keep the faith of the people (such as myself and many people I know) active.
I believe in prayers, songs of worships, but I avoid going to religious gatherings, because I feel that we are entitled to our own ways of worship, and our own beliefs.
I also noticed a common trend in which religion has started many wars, ancient up to today. But the mainstream of those war starters are Fanatics of religion.
No offense intended to anyone, and please don't preach benefits of going to church, etc to me, but I do like to hear others opinions.
I think it's very interesting to see the responses, and now, just to complicate matters, I was wondering just how many people, know, that others, are doing wrong and breaking the law, and think to themselves, shit I don't wish to get involved!
I ask this question, because of several reasons, but the main one is that, I'm born and raised in a community of survivors, and for me it's also difficult to say, where does one draw the line, be it pens or paper from work...and i know the line matters.
When i was younger, and visited my home in UK I was always approached, to purchase something, and had to make a point of saying, if its hot, i will turn you in, if I purchase it and find out. It was important from the start, to draw the line, between what was acceptable and what wasn't but the criminal in most cases is driven by the simplicity of crime against the punishment if caught.
The criminal doesn't care, he's eventually institutionalised, he cares only about the moment, the survival moment, high risk, high price to pay, prison is far from a deterrent in UK for many.
I feel with age, that my tolerance is limited and I can blow a fuse, quite rapidly, to say I have faith in people, would be a lie, people are the least trustworthy in my opinion, Life is very complexed and we have all lived in different dimensions of reality, I say reality, because I am still convinced, that we we see, is a figment of imagination, having faith for me, keeps me focussed on the right track of being a person of humanity...and yet humanity may not even exist, how can it?
Our emotions maybe touched and we feel a sense of sadness and sorrow, and my mind then goes into the cage, with my daughters hamsters, then i recall the memory of being imprisoned, 24 hrs a day, the shock is traumatic and when one pounds around a 2 X 1.5 mtr with 3 guys in it, many things flash through ones mind, especially with a homosexual psycho in the cell, having served his 18 years.
All the faith in the world doesn't help, it's a matter of survival, kill or be raped, the adrenalin rushes, around uncontrollable, through the veins, panic is clear, the warnings are given, and only destiny awaits. It's fear against fear, although one can say I have no fear, I will challenge anyone, to the death.
The principles of life are very strong, they are implanted at birth and indoctrination by parent's in childhood are at different levels, some don't care and some are moderate about upbringing and others maybe over the top.
I believe the question of faith appears only in severe need of help, and that many may just say, I have faith, although their faith is untested, and I'm sure that, in matters of emergency, the faith comes within, so I say god is a part of us, god is that part, that comes when life is in the balance, the god is ourselves, and our survival is against nature, and learning to respect the world, the earth, to fight over power and supremacy, is the death of mankind, and the destruction of the human race..
I'm happy that i have faith in my life time, although my strength is in my survival, to produce...and when i look back on the difficulties of life, i ask if it's all worth it.....and my conclusion is yes, no matter how bad the life, hope, brings happy moments, and nature destroys, them, and many parents and children really do suffer, the wrath of nature. which is cruel, in divorce, having faith in religion never helped them.
Having faith in themselves was probably the strength, that got them through, in the end, life is up and down, for many, yet if one stays on the right side, the downs become less frequent. _________________ http://www.drinkingvinegar.com
Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:21 am Post subject: Religion
I have also struggled with much of what ive read in this thread up. However, I just want to offer two things to consider.
First, religion is a set of beliefs practiced by a group of followers. over the years the word religion has been misinterpreted as the definition of human activities within a church body. What you are referring to (sexual offences, hypocrites, etc.) is just plain and simply unacceptable human behaviour driven by the sinful desires of those humans. It is not the religion or church body making these people do this, it's their imperfect sinful desires.
Yes, if you have faith in Jesus as your God then you should attend church. as long as their are humans on this planet they will always be there to spoil something good. but that is no reason to run away from a church body, in fact more reason to stay involved to weed out this behaviour. The disciples and Jesus spoke many words to the various churches in the biblical days about these bad behaviours.
Secondly, Budda was peaceful yes, but after readin his works and the red font of Jesus in the new testament one cannot say Jesus was not the most peaceful being ever to walk this earth. Jesus was truly 100% unconditional love, so much so he withstood a horrible death for us. not just death but constant ridicule.
If I'm right I will be in heaven if i have faith in him as he asks. If im wrong (which i dont believe) then I would have lived my life obeying the most perfect Man ever to walk the earth.
One last thing, there was mention of why so much pain in the earth and what God would allow this. wouldnt this be a question for Budda and every other religion? I can tell you what i believe, I believe our time on earth is but a blip on the screen of eternity and we as humans put far too much in the importance of our own lives. If we lived for others we would not be so selfish, and there we would have peace in our lives. Wars are waged due to selfishness, pride, greed. And not even the budhists are above war as they are demonstrating in thailand/cambodia fighting over a temple with machine guns.
Jesus is constantly mocked and ridiculed as the Bible prophesized he would. I challenge anyone to read his words in red font and tell me he is not the most peaceful ever to walk this earth, bar none.
Posted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:44 am Post subject: Re: Religion
POOLECJ wrote:
one cannot say Jesus was not the most peaceful being ever to walk this earth. Jesus was truly 100% unconditional love, so much so he withstood a horrible death for us. not just death but constant ridicule.
Well, I along with all those who do not believe in him, and those who have not even heard of him have been condemned to an eternity of fiery damnation.
The day anyone helps someone else in severe distress (which it seems all of us unbelievers are in) only with the expectation of complete appreciation is the day hardly deserves the medal of mercy.
'If we lived for others we would not be so selfish, and there we would have peace in our lives. Wars are waged due to selfishness, pride, greed. And not even the budhists are above war as they are demonstrating in thailand/cambodia fighting over a temple with machine guns.'
You are making the assumption, not directly in this quote, but from the overall message of your post, that this is to be achieved by following Christ and his teachings. Also, you really would not like any one here to cite examples of far worse events precipitated directly in the name of God himself.
Do you consider it impossible that people are capable of behaving in a manner that is to the benefit of other human beings, without understanding, knowing or believing in the teachings of Christ, Buddha, the Prophet or anyone else?
One last thing, it is quite likely the result of my own ignorance of the teaching of Christ, and perhaps of every other major religion. As someone clearly steeped in the Chistian faith, and presumably understanding, maybe you could clear something up for me.
Following up on my initial topic, how do you justify God's condemning people to an eternity of, umm unpleasantness for being in fundamental disagreement with him?
I am not going to attempt to step in God's shoes and judge others and determine who will and who will not serve eternity in fiery damnation. all I know is my path to eternal life is through him believe others is as well.
Helping others in distress with expectation of "complete" appreciation is a prideful act and is not being carried out with love for others but love for one self. Your comments have spin'd what i said and insinuate i suggest we help others for appreciation, which is 100% contrary to my believe.
Again, wrong, not my assumption. Whether you choose to follow Jesus or not the simple fact is we are selfish in nature and thus this starts all of humans problems. And yes, you can cite examples all day long of people doing things in Jesus name that were wrong, I have many myself. But herein lies the problem, the human element, humans can and will misinterpret everything. Many believers in the Bible did not follow Christ as he wished. Many false prophets will also come as proclaimed by Christ. The fact is humans are weak, sinful and selfish in nature. we can and will screw anything up. now, we do have our good sides sometimes:)
Yes, I do believe people can behave in a manner to benefit others and they do. This i do not dispute.
That's a though provoking question and let me first say im no Bible Scholar. just one who 14 years ago found the light in my life that has shown me what really matters in my life. This after 27 years of a happy go lucky life. God has truly blessed me and given me joy i could never imagine. not necessarily money, friends, or things. just overwhelming peace.
I don't even try to understand God's ways, i'd be a fool to think I could understand a God who created something so wonderous and powerful in this universe. We only use like 10-15% of our small brain, how can we even begin to try and anlyze everything, we can't.
But I will give you my position on your last question as best I can say (although as ive experience often with non-believers who like to debate i must say this is not a debate, only my thoughts).
God is our Father, just like you have a Father, every one on this earth is his children, and brothers and sisters. God wants to bring his children to a peaceful heaven with him. However, we must love him. If we ignore him and mock him I dare say we shouldnt expect him to roll out the red carpet for us. He only wants those who truly love him for who he is, the creator of the universe. If he gave a free pass to all those who did not love him in faith then it would not be heaven at all.
Again, most people lose sight, just as the Christian Crusaders did of the true love Jesus had for all of us and the true meaning of his teachings. I think alot of people get into analysis paralysis of the meaning of life, and end up believing a little of everything. You likely paint me as simple which is fine by me. But it takes alot more courage and strength to have faith in Christ, it hasnt been an easy road. but of course the easy road has nothing to offer.
I read a lot of people asking about which churches to attend in this forum.
Do church goers actually believe Jesus walked on water, and manged to make hundreds of tuna sandwiches from a small basket, or they accept its more of a story with urns full of artistic license designed to drive home a message to the uneducated populace of the time.
I assume they attend churches more as a social event, to make friends, without the need of paying the huge joining fees for the more obvious social clubs.
If they do believe it is possible to walk on water, wine from water etc. then theoretically all the local folklore, for example the dragon princess turning herself into Tioman island is not daft as it sound and should be entirely possible?
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Nice people as well, not at all daft as you describe them.
Yes folks you read it here first ! This should be possible just as walking on the moon was possible.
