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Expats in Singapore & Expatriates Relocating to Singapore

Vanda · Newbie Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Posts: 2

Wondering of anyone knows a good lawyer who can correctly advise on the exemption of NS obligation anf renounciation of citizenship---in our case the baby wont live in Singapore and wont take any socio economic benefits from the Govt

Thanks!

sundaymorningstaple · Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 7:45 am Post subject:

Vanda,

You don't need a lawyer. All you have to do it follow the easy things to do that have already been listed in links in these threads on this subject. You need to have him out of the country before the age of 11 or 13 (11 to be safe). You need to inform the Government of your intentions of renunciation at the age of 17 in writing. You need to ensure that you don't renew or let him keep a passport beyond the age of 11 or 13). You need to also register & notify Mindef at 16.5 years of age as well. So if you are planning on immigrating you need to ensure that you will be able to obtain citizenship prior to the male child reaching that age (11 or 13). Even if you do obtain citizenship it doesn't matter unless you notify the respective government agencies timely. Then, once the child reaches 21, you file for formal renunciation.
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Vanda · Newbie Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Posts: 2

Thanks so much for your reply...have a few comments in CAPS BELOW:

You don't need a lawyer. All you have to do it follow the easy things to do that have already been listed in links in these threads on this subject. You need to have him out of the country before the age of 11 or 13 (11 to be safe).

[VANDA COMMENT: WILL GET HIM OUT OF THE COUNTRY BEFORE 11; HOWEVER, IS THERE ANY ANY OFFICIAL LINE PRINTED BY MINDEF/CMPB/MFA SINGAPORE WHICH SAYS THAT DEFERMENT OF NS IS PERMITTED IF BABY GETS OUT OF SINGAPORE BY 11 AND DOESNT TAKE ANY NS OBLIGATIONS? ALL THE PREVIOUS LINKS LISTED ON THIS FORUM HAVE EXPIRED...WONDERING IF THERE IS ANYTHING RECENT PUBLISHED BY ANY OF THE SINGAPORE AGENCIES?

VM COMMENT: ALSO, WHAT CONSTITUTES TAKING "SOCIO ECONOMIC BENEFITS"? IS THERE A LIST ISSUED BY THE SINGAPORE GOVT AGENCIES?

You need to inform the Government of your intentions of renunciation at the age of 17 in writing. You need to ensure that you don't renew or let him keep a passport beyond the age of 11 or 13).

VM COMMENT: WOULD BE OBLIGED IF YOU COULD DIRECT ME TO THE RESOURCE WHICH MENTIONS GIVING UP PASSPORT BY 11 OR 13? I DONT THINK HOLDING PASSPORT CONSTITUTES SOCIO ECONOMIC BENEFIT BUT HOLDING AN IC DOES...

VM COMMENT: I HAVE AN ADDITIONAL DIFFICULTY HERE...I AM AN INDIAN. INDIAN LAWS DO NOT PERMIT DUAL CITIZENSHIP AND BABY CANT HOLD INDIAN PASSPORT IF HE ISNT INDIAN. THEREFORE NO CHOICE BUT TO TAKE SINGAPORE PASSPORT...IF BABY DOESNT RENEW PASSPORT BEYOND AGE OF 11 OR 13, HE CANNOT TRAVEL OVERSEAS UNTIL HE RENOUNCES CITIZENSHIP...THIS SEEMS IMPRACTICAL...

You need to also register & notify Mindef at 16.5 years of age as well. So if you are planning on immigrating you need to ensure that you will be able to obtain citizenship prior to the male child reaching that age (11 or 13). Even if you do obtain citizenship it doesn't matter unless you notify the respective government agencies timely. Then, once the child reaches 21, you file for formal renunciation.[/quote]

VM COMMENT: AGAIN UNDER INDIAN LAWS, DUAL CITIZENSHIP ISNT RECOGNIZED-THEREFORE BABY CAN ONLY TAKE UP INDIAN CITIZENSHIP ONCE HE RENOUNCES SINGAPORE CITIZENSHIP...I CAN DEFINITELY FILE A LETTER OF INTENT WITH INDIAN GOVT AND SINGAPORE AUTHORITIES, BUT WILL BABY BE ABLE TO GET AWAY WITH NS OBLIGATIONS BEFORE HE TAKES UP INDIAN CITIZENSHIP AND RENOUNCES SINGAPOREAN CITIZENSHIP?

I WOULD LOVE TO SEE SOME CONCRETE DATA POINTS ON ALL OF THE ABOVE ISSUES.

WOULD BE EXTREMELY GRATEFUL IF SOMEONE CAN HELP!

THANKS A LOT

VANDA

sundaymorningstaple · Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 5:08 pm Post subject:

Vanda,

Any particular reason you are shouting in your message? (all caps normally means raising your voice or shouting.) Neutral

To be honest you are going to have to pick up the phone and call the Ministry of Foreign Affairs to get a blow by blow. The revamped websites have changed their guidelines as to the ages (11 to 13) due to the new biometric passports and their cost. It also means now a child must apply for an exit permit once they are 13 and if they are going to be out of the country more than 2 years the parents must apply for a bond. It also means that no matter when you get the first passport for the child it will expire at 10 years or at the age of 11 which ever comes first. After that the child will need a exit permit from Mindef.

The details that we have gleaned from multiple posters and users who have made phone calls have helped to piece together the data. The government is not going to post step by step instruction on how to avoid NS. Frankly I don't blame them. It is the onus of the parents to do their homework when the child was born and stay on top of it until renunciation was complete. Anyway, I said it all before. Below is bits and pieces and notes. Most you will have already seen I am sure but at least it's all in one place now.
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http://www.singaporeexpats.com/forum/sutra287240.html&highlight=hazy+shade+gray+grey#287240

As this was initially in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs old website, I would think a call to the same ministsry would probably give you the same information with the possible exception that the age was changed to 13 (as the age to get an exit permit from MINDEF is now 13 as well. The following link will confirm that.

http://www.mindef.gov.sg/imindef/news_and_events/nr/2006/jul/25jul06_nr2/25jul06_fs.html

http://www.ns.sg/nsPortal/appmanager/nsp/default?nfpb=true&_pageLabel=nsPortal_NSREG_ABT&nsp_community=ENLIST

This taken from: http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1017.html

primitivo · Newbie Joined: 22 Feb 2008 Posts: 19

jac_00 · Newbie Joined: 24 Mar 2008 Posts: 1

i have just encountered similar problems and now currently in the process of discussing with CMPB about this issue.
My brother in law also grew up in Europe since 1-2 mths old and apparently when he just renounced his citizenship at the age of 22, his application has been witheld. After speaking to an ex colonel, he said that he has been now classified as a NS defaulter under CMPB's data base and thus even if he has european passport and had not got his NRIC, renewed his passport etc, he might be arrested at the airport. This is because he is still a Singapore citizen.

I was given a reply by CMPB to notify an officer about his flight details (cos i wrote in to ask if there would be any trouble if he visited singapore for summer holidays). I can't get hold of that guy for the moment, so am just gonna call till then.

The strange thing about this whole incident is that my mother in law had spoken to the Brussels Embassy about renouncing his citizenship and was told my the officer there that he could only do so after 21. My hubby did that and he had NO PROBLEMS to renounce it.( My hubby was above 21 years of age)
About 1.5 years later, when my brother in law is renouncing it now, they are witholding his application.

I seriously am thinking that the embassies have little or poor information about the process. And this is getting to be a big headache for us all....
Its irritating cos when we called ICA, we were told to speak to CMPB directly through an email.

PHK · Member Joined: 09 Jul 2008 Posts: 48

Parents:
Father: Resigned Singapore PR
Mother: Renounced Singapore Citizenship
We have only 1 child

Our son:
Native born American Citizen
Left Singapore before age 11
Attended only non-MOE Expatriate Interntional School
No Pink IC
Singapore Passport expired
MinDef has no valid address on file for him

Seeking advice / guidance:

1. Should we send a letter to MinDef delaring our intention to renounce his Singapore Citizenship? If yes should the letter be sent now or wait until he is 16.5 years of age?

2. In sending the letter and registering him at age 16.5, will he truely be given a deferment until age 21 when he can resign his Singapore Citizenship or is it better not to send any letter, no notice will be received by us from MinDef as we have moved several times, and just mail in the citizenship certificate and expired passport back to ICA at 21 or not even do all that and just forget all about Singapore?

Any advice / guidance on how to handle the above will be greatly appreciated. We would like to do this in such a way so that if as an adult he ever visited Singapore he would not be detained for any reason. Thank you for your time!

sundaymorningstaple · Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 12:46 am Post subject:

When did his passport expire? Before or after the age of 11?

If the Passport expired prior to his 11th birthday then just sent them a letter notifying them of the intent now and again when he is 16.5 just to make sure. Send it registered return receipt requested preferrably. (I don't trust them either).

How did he get Singapore Citizenship? How did he get US citizenship? Where was he physically born?
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PHK · Member Joined: 09 Jul 2008 Posts: 48

Thank you sundaymorningstaple

His passport expired before his 11 birhtday and I will be sending them the letter now. It is unfortuante that no where else except this forumn they advise to send such a letter.

He was born in New York State so he has a NY State Birth Certificate and birth right native U.S. citizenship. My wife was Singapore CItizen at the time and since I had an Singapore assignment with an oil company we got him the Singapore Citizenship certificate via the Singapore consulate in New York before we went to live there for about 5 years.

I thought if they do not have our address than we will not get letters asking for bond, his Singapore passport is expired, or anything informing us for his need to register for NS as 16.5.

Suppose we register and they do not give defferment, than what do we do?

Would they not allow a renunciation at age 21 without registering for a foreign-born who's mother is no longer a Singapore citizen?

Thank you very very for having this great web site and information available for all... it is a real great service...

sundaymorningstaple · Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 11:24 pm Post subject:

888max · Newbie Joined: 09 Apr 2008 Posts: 15

lonelyman · Newbie Joined: 09 Jul 2008 Posts: 2

888max · Newbie Joined: 09 Apr 2008 Posts: 15

sundaymorningstaple · Posted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 9:26 am Post subject:

888max · Newbie Joined: 09 Apr 2008 Posts: 15

888max · Newbie Joined: 09 Apr 2008 Posts: 15

This is a very good example if your sons remain overseas without a exit permit regardless whether they left sg before age 11 yrs..
Your sons will be charge , some even get a jail sentance . His future will be jeopardize.

And the worst part is , you still have to serve back 2yrs of NS back to them before you're allow to renounce your sg citizenship.

Be very careful !! Cool

*************************************************************
SINGAPORE-BORN Shantakumar Bannirchelvam spent most of the last decade living with his family in Australia.

The 19-year-old Australian citizen, however, returned to his birthplace last September to enlist as a full-time national serviceman (NSF).

But Shantakumar was fined $1,500 yesterday for remaining outside Singapore without an exit permit.

The sentence came after prosecutors appealed against an earlier decision that let him off with probation and community service.

Judge of Appeal V.K.Rajah commended the teenager yesterday for coming back to serve in the military. But 'as a matter of policy and precedent', a fine must be handed down, he said.

The $1,500 fine was half the benchmark of $3,000, and took into account Shantakumar's 33 hours of community service, he said.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
NOTE:
{Shantakumar, who now holds dual citizenship, first received a letter from the Defence Ministry telling him to register for full-time national service in May 2005, and he did so.}

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
He then headed to the United States on an exchange programme.

Meanwhile, his father tried repeatedly to defer his enlistment, but though he was unsuccessful, Shantakumar continued with his US studies without an exit permit.

In September last year, he returned to Singapore, and was subsequently charged with staying away from the country without an exit permit between 2005 and last year.

In February this year, Shantakumar pleaded guilty to the charge under the Enlistment Act.

A district judge, who called him a 'promising young man with a bright future ahead' decided not to record a conviction against him.

She put him on six months' probation and ordered him to do 40 hours of community service.

But prosecutors appealed, saying the district judge was wrong to depart from the usual punishment.

Yesterday, Shantakumar, who is now doing his Basic Military Training, said he hoped to make it to Officer Cadet School. He was worried that the conviction would count against him in the selection process.

chopin_88 · Newbie Joined: 05 Aug 2008 Posts: 10

woah shit man xD so is it true that it is so difficult to enter singapore if someone has left the country before the age of 11 ? so stupid ah, then my poor friend can probably never go back or what..
because he left singapore very early I think when he was 10 or something. no exit permit nothing, but my friend very solid siah he dare to go to singapore but I always warn him lah that he will be arrested, he is 20 now and has not been nback yet:D:D:
problem eh?

PHK · Member Joined: 09 Jul 2008 Posts: 48

With all due respect, requiring a male foreign born child who vacated Singapore before his 11th birthday, attended only international school's, never collected a pink IC, and does not hold a valid Singapore Passport (and even the mother is no longer a Singapore citizen) to obtain an exit permit after they have already legally left the country or face criminal charges is the equivalent of requiring a deceased person to register to vote.

Come on, please don't be stupid Singapore... you can waive your flag, proclaim your soverentity and success as a nation too, but do not forget that your school's until not too long were teaching the young that Singapore fought for its independence and obtained it from the British...

Its the American's that will certanly defend Singapore land, treating foreigners in a reckless non-sense manner just will not fly... get a grip on reality please.

RichardUK · Newbie Joined: 27 Aug 2008 Posts: 2 Location: UK

Let me tell my (current) story as a warning. Any advice gratefully received.

I am a UK national, my wife Singaporean. My son, now aged 14.5 holds both nationalities. He was born in the UK, been to school in the UK, and only visited Singapore 4 times for short trips of about 2 weeks.

His application to defer NS pending renounciation of citizenship at age 21 has been turned down. I suspect this is because he used his Singapore passport to travel to Malaysia when aged 11. [Things you would do differently if you had your time again; no reason why he couldn't have used his British passport for this trip].

Further more, he currently has no exit permit. The rules changed since we were last in Singapore, and we have only recently become aware of them. MinDef have advised that he travels to Singapore as soon as possible to put right his NS offences.

I should say that in principle I have no objection to him serving NS in Singapore, it is just that it makes it very difficult here with schooling, univserity etc where people are just not geared up for young people taking a 2 year break.

So here is our dilema. Do we travel to Singapore to apply for an exit permit and hope that the Singapore authorities are fair and let him leave the country again, do we ignore everything and be resigned to the fact that he won't be able to visit Singapore again, or do we continue to try to get deferment from NS?

Any thoughts?

sundaymorningstaple

jpatokal

sundaymorningstaple · Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 7:26 am Post subject:

good job JP! I forgot that most would not BE IN SINGAPORE so probably wouldn't have had the opportunity to know about it. Call it a d'oh! moment
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andy21 · Regular Joined: 18 Apr 2008 Posts: 66

Much has been said about how terribly the Singapore government handles the issue of citizenship renunciation for males with regards the National Service issue.

I wonder though, if anyone knows how other countries with military conscription handles similar issues, maybe countries like South Korea or Israel.

Maybe I (and many like myself) are unfairly bashing the government in this regard? Maybe these other governments handle the issue in far worse fashion than this one?

PHK · Member Joined: 09 Jul 2008 Posts: 48

Wow... I sure appreciate the great information here and I am treading very carefully through this process.

While I am happy that we did not renew my son's Singapore Passport, however, how does one get a child out of Singapore to be exempt from NS, before the 11 birthday, if the child is +10.5 years of age, when they insist on 6 months validity of a Singapore Passport at immigration to exit.

It would be very hard to make a Singapore Passport expire just before the 11th birthday. You can make sure you do not renew it, you can make sure you do not collect a Pink IC, and even be out of the country prior to the 11th birthday, but for most it would be next to impossible to have it expire before the 11th birthday.

Now MinDef will use that little technicality, a Singapore Passport expiring after the 11th birthday, to claim that your child enjoyed the social economic benefits of citizenship and must serve NS before the renunciation of citizenship will be approved. Otherwise, as a NS defaulter, criminal charges will be filed against your child.

Boy oh boy, Singapore! My God.............. scarry!

waz · Regular Joined: 23 Nov 2004 Posts: 61 Location: Australia

I have a son. He is 8 now. Moved overseas when he was still in kindy, almost 3 years ago. Now studying at an overseas primary school.

We acquire a foreign citizenship. However his Singapore passport still valid. He can't renounce until at least 21 as per the Singapore law.

Which specific department at Mindef do I need to call to discuss about needing an exit permit and intention to renounce at 21. A phone number will be appreciated if anyone here knows.

Thanks
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RichardUK · Newbie Joined: 27 Aug 2008 Posts: 2 Location: UK

"Just having a valid one after the age of 11 made him eligible for NS. It's is the same as having an NRIC."

Unfortunately the Sing High Comm in London extended his passport for 3 months - yes that's all, just 3 months beyond his 11th birthday. And I checked, I was mistaken about using the passport, it was only used to return to Singapore. Of course, if we'd realised the implications at the tim then we would not have renewed it.

"It is time, I think, to get your son involved in the discussions."

Well he can't see himself doing NS, but he isn't really old enough to decide the course of action now. MinDef just tell him to return to Singapore ASAP without saying whether they'll ever let him leave again. Remember he has *never* lived in Singapore, not even born there, in the middle of his GCSE courses. What exactly do they expect parents to advise their children to do??

sundaymorningstaple · Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 5:28 pm Post subject:

waz,

Did you think about cutting up his passport and sending it back to the Singapore government? Before he turns 11 or 13 I think it is now (but better not to take that chance). There is not a problem with having citizenship, just a problem of having an NRIC or Valid Passport. If you destroy it (but not burning) by cutting it up, and sending it back to the government you shoud be able to say that your son did not have a valid passport past the age of 11.

PHK,

If a parent waits until a child's passport is less than 6 months from expiry and 10.5 years old and only then finds out, then I'd say, if the child hates you later, he will have every right to as you procrastinated at his expense.
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PHK · Member Joined: 09 Jul 2008 Posts: 48

While I am not an attorney, this is not legal advice, but if you would like to know-

Exemption from Singapore NS critical information:

1. Get you son's out of Singapore before their 11th birthday (age 13 is unconfirmed)

2. Then send a registered letter, with postcard return receipt for yourself, to ICA declaring intention to renounce child's citizenship at age 21

3. Make sure the Singapore Passport expires before the 11th birthday and/or include it with the registered letter for cancellation / surrender. Personally I would not alter the passport, expired or valid, as that in itself may be regarded as a criminal offense latter.

4. Never ever collect a Pink IC or renew a Singapore Passport past the 11th birthday

5. Apply online for an Exit Permit within 3 months of the 13th birthday (even though you have allowed the Singapore Passport to expire or had it canceled / surrendered before the 11th birthday)

6. Register for NS at age 16.5 (or age 17?) and ask for a deferment to age 21 when renunciation can be made

7. If either parent is a PR or Singapore Citizen, assuming that you too have left Singapore, then they too should renounce your PR or citizenship as soon as possible and collect their hard earned CPF savings

8. Renounce the son's Singapore Citizenship on the 21st birthday making sure that a foreign citizenship has been secured first using their special renunciation form that needs to be notarized and is not available on the ICA web site. Do NOT allow your son's to visit Singapore even on a foreign passport until you have the renunciation acceptance letter.

9. Keep up with changes in the law. Never ever trust ICA or MidDef, do not communicate with them in writing in any way that could be construed as assisting a potential NS defaulter in a court of law latter, beware as they will use all technicalities available. I am sure they are reading this too. Good luck!

waz · Regular Joined: 23 Nov 2004 Posts: 61 Location: Australia

Thanks PHK

My only concern as per your listed point is my sons passport.

His passport will only expire in 2012 which is when he is 12 years old. Pass that 11 year old mark,

And sending a letter to ICA? To which department would that be?
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888max · Newbie Joined: 09 Apr 2008 Posts: 15

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