write a testy letter in, or better, get a lawyer to write a letter on their behalf. there is no way a parent can be charged if they have not yet "assist" their 15 year old minor in defaulting. let the mindef complain machine roll its way around.
in fact, since this boy is a singapore citizen, there will be some minister or MP that he will be able to approach to represent him and make sure that interviewer who has made such remarks get heavily censured, or at minimum, 10 strokes of the cane!
In the unlikely chance that you're serious, you have a remarkably rosy view of the accountability of Singapore's bureaucracy
PHK wrote:
You may wish to know that if a child is born in Singapore then the law requires the kid to be registered as a Singapore Citizen if both parents hold Singapore PR or if one parent has Singapore Citizenship. You can not even refuse to take it that way on the birth certificate, it is mandated.
Citizenship by birth
121. —(1) Subject to this Article, every person born in Singapore after 16th September 1963 shall be a citizen of Singapore by birth.
(2) A person shall not be a citizen of Singapore by virtue of clause (1) if at the time of his birth —
(c) neither of his parents was a citizen of Singapore.
So, no, your kid will not magically turn Singaporean unless at least one of his parents is one as well. _________________ Vaguely heretical thoughts on travel technology at Gyrovague
write a testy letter in, or better, get a lawyer to write a letter on their behalf. there is no way a parent can be charged if they have not yet "assist" their 15 year old minor in defaulting. let the mindef complain machine roll its way around.
in fact, since this boy is a singapore citizen, there will be some minister or MP that he will be able to approach to represent him and make sure that interviewer who has made such remarks get heavily censured, or at minimum, 10 strokes of the cane!
In the unlikely chance that you're serious, you have a remarkably rosy view of the accountability of Singapore's bureaucracy
alright, i'll admit it: the second part is wishful thinking of my part.
but i'm absolutely certain the first would result in some form of apology and possible clarification by a senior officer when channeled through the proper avenues, AND provided the scenario was indeed as described.
especially when there's the tape they can refer to...
I am not trying to BS anyone, just trying to assist people.
Why does the kid have to be Singaporean if the parent does not want it?
In December 2008 I accompanied a relative, (newborn boy's father American with and wife Singaporean), to the birth registration at KK Women's & Children's Hospital and they insisted on the child being registered as a Singapore citizen first despite objections from the father
Anyone else here having the same problem... I will be forwarding them this link you posted. I am glad we are finally touching on this birth registration subject as I thought it was a lost cause in Singapore. Thanks.
in December 2008 I accompanied a relative, (newborn boy's father American and wife Singaporean), to the birth registration at KK Women's & Children's Hospital and did not see it that way and insisted on the child being registered as a Singapore citizen first.
probably because the mom's singaporean... but what were their plans regarding the boy's future (re: NS)?
As per the American Embassy Singapore, you MUST first register the child's birth locally... no way around it. They were not concerned with getting a baby bonus, etc. from Singapore at all.
Also, I am sure the father entered Singapore on his American passport and the mother has no choice but to use her Singapore passport.
The newborn get's his consular report of birth and US Passport. To get him out of Singapore they can save the S$80 for a Singapore passport as any dual minor citizen can then get the "Right of Entry" stamp by producing the birth certificate and foreign passport to the ICA Citizenship section on the 6th floor. ICA will also give a dual minor citizen the stamp in the foreign passport even if they already have a Singapore passport too.
You can bet your money that I gave him my list of 9 check list items for the long road to exemption from Singapore NS so his son does not have to serve NS (unless he wants to).
As per the American Embassy Singapore, you MUST first register the child's birth locally... no way around it. They were not concerned with getting a baby bonus, etc. from Singapore at all.
i never knew that... i wasn't even thinking about the baby bonus, but that it's important to avoid getting an NRIC number!
Taxico, the baby, once given a Singapore Birth Certificate (nowdays) already has his NRIC number. It's the same as the Birth Certificate registration number (only the prefix letter is changed from a T to an S). What's important is the the child never gets an Singapore Passport OR has the NRIC 'issued' to him. _________________ . . . .Click here for >>> Helpful Links and Resources For Expats in Singapore
Taxico, the baby, once given a Singapore Birth Certificate (nowdays) already has his NRIC number. It's the same as the Birth Certificate registration number (only the prefix letter is changed from a T to an S). What's important is the the child never gets an Singapore Passport OR has the NRIC 'issued' to him.
i equated not registering birth with sing authorities with not getting singapore passport/NRIC issued i think. my bad, and you've clarified that.
and yo sunday, i see you're posting more again! how was yo holiday?
I am not trying to BS anyone, just trying to assist people.
So do you still think the offspring of two PRs must or even can be registered as citizen?
Quote:
In December 2008 I accompanied a relative, (newborn boy's father American with and wife Singaporean), to the birth registration at KK Women's & Children's Hospital and they insisted on the child being registered as a Singapore citizen first despite objections from the father
That's because one of the parents is a Singaporean, and the way I read it, the Constitution does indeed require them to register such a child born in Sg as a Sg citizen. _________________ Vaguely heretical thoughts on travel technology at Gyrovague
Hey Taxico! I'm flying out of BWI tomorrow morning at 9am - will be back in Singers Midnight Saturday night. Hols were not long enough! But the crabs were good! _________________ . . . .Click here for >>> Helpful Links and Resources For Expats in Singapore
Been trying to do some research and came across this forum. I am an ex-singaporean and just wanted to share my views.
For those who are trying to avoid NS for their children, please think about their future carefully. I will just share my experience.
I was born in Singapore and emigrated to Australia when I was 8 years old around 1986. A lot of people seem to not know what to do in this situation. My SG Passport expired 2 years later and my parents never renewed it. I received and Australian citizenship and this was made known to the Singapore govt. We went through the proper channels of getting me an exit permit and registering me for NS at 16. As I did not enjoy any socio-economic benefits we did not need to pay a bond.
My NS was deferred till 21. I was 2 years in Uni during that time and just needed 1 more year to complete my degree. A subsequent deferment request was denied. Then came the hardest decision, my parents said better renounce and finish uni, they didn;t want my education interrupted. Being still not so mature I didn;t really think about the consequences. So I renounced.
Now as I almost went back to singapore to see family every year and even sudied in an International School in Singapore, I still felt Singapore was always somehow, home to me.
I think renuncing was the biggest mistake of my life. I now cannot work in Singapore. Have applied for working visa there and have been rejected with no explanation but I believe it is due to me not serving NS. My younger brother did not finish Uni thus my dad asked him to go back to server, which he did, and is now working for my father. He has also renounced since serving but has been granted working visa with no dramas.
I haven't given up as yet trying to see if I can work in Singapore, a few years back I actually asked if I could serve, but was rejected as I was no longer a singaporean citizen which makes sense. It just makes me very sad that they let a lot of other foreigners in to work so easily and who probably have no loyalty at all to Singapore. At least I have ties which still show that at least I am loyal to my brith country. Decisions made at a young age in Singapore can have profound repurcusions. I regret it deeply and have to say it is a turning point in my life.
I urge all parents to think carefully about their child before they go ahead and make the decision for them so early. NS is not that bad, in todays age, I believe it will really help in maturing the kids these days who all seem to be more and more pampered.
Even now living so much of my life in Australia, I'd still rather fight for Singapore in a war.. even though I have been labelled as an ex-singaporean.
Twotribez, you probably got to the point majority of people nowadays will never reach. You understood that accepting another country citizenship should also include loyalty and commitment. For vast majority it is just a mechanical procedure to improve their comfort of living or social status.
You have also re-enforced what I've been on about since the beginning. Parents often do what 'they' thing is right based on their personal feelings instead of thinking of what is of the most benefit to the child. This is why my son will be doing NS after he finished NAFA. At least, if he renounces after NS his future is still open and the networks he will form will probably be of assistance even from a global perspective in today's shrunken world. It would be a shame to deny him the right to possibly work here just because of some parent's misguided reasoning.
Thanks for posting a first-hand account. I hope our readers will take heed of this.
Twotribez, you probably got to the point majority of people nowadays will never reach. You understood that accepting another country citizenship should also include loyalty and commitment. For vast majority it is just a mechanical procedure to improve their comfort of living or social status.
Hi there, well, when I accepted the Australian citizenship at 8 years old, I hardly knew what I was doing... It is hard to stay loyal to a country when you are not a first class citizen.
I mean Australia is a great place but in the corporate workplace, we are slightly disadvantaged, no matter how you look at it. It is a generalisation but I believe it is the truth.
If the SG govt ever gives me a chance, I would return to SG for good, Raise my kids there and send them to NS, I definitely would like them to be bilingual.
Hi there, well, when I accepted the Australian citizenship at 8 years old, I hardly knew what I was doing...
I did not aim at you. Just general observation.
twotribez wrote:
It is hard to stay loyal to a country when you are not a first class citizen.
I mean Australia is a great place but in the corporate workplace, we are slightly disadvantaged, no matter how you look at it. It is a generalisation but I believe it is the truth.
I wonder how much of this is due to the fact that you are aware of such stereotypes and feel because of this insecure/less confident?
Hi there, well, when I accepted the Australian citizenship at 8 years old, I hardly knew what I was doing...
I did not aim at you. Just general observation.
twotribez wrote:
It is hard to stay loyal to a country when you are not a first class citizen.
I mean Australia is a great place but in the corporate workplace, we are slightly disadvantaged, no matter how you look at it. It is a generalisation but I believe it is the truth.
I wonder how much of this is due to the fact that you are aware of such stereotypes and feel because of this insecure/less confident?
haha no I know you were not aiming at me., Well I am actually doing quite well here in Australia, I don't lack any confidence at all. But I do see favourtism in a certain way for some people which is usually in upper upper management.
I am not complaining about my life here, I have had it good, just merely stating that my options have been limited because of not serving NS.
twotribez,
its certainly heartbreaking to hear that you would still fight for Singapore in time of war, which makes me think of my son, wonder if he has that kind of loyalty. He lives in Oz since 6 yo, and he is prepared to return to serve NS in 2010. As a parent who have been through NS in the 80's, I know for certain that NS at that time is very tough. With Sporeans living globally, just wonder how many overseas Singapore kids actually go back and serve NS, and wonder how hey react to a totally different culture. Any out there who have returned to serve NS, or kids who have returned to serve NS, please share your experience.
Give you kid some props. Kids are a lot more flexible than the parents are. It's one of the hallmarks of being young, the ability to flex and conform to new and different sets of stimuli. They are usually non-plussed about the whole deal unless they have other sociological problems outside the norms. Most will just deal with it. I find parents get too worked up about things which normally are just a perception. Of all the people on here who have done NS, it's only a very small fraction who don't feel a lot of good was gained out of the experience. _________________ . . . .Click here for >>> Helpful Links and Resources For Expats in Singapore
Location: London/Singapore (back for good 29 Jul 2010)
Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 2:08 pm Post subject:
HakFromOz wrote:
twotribez,
its certainly heartbreaking to hear that you would still fight for Singapore in time of war, which makes me think of my son, wonder if he has that kind of loyalty. He lives in Oz since 6 yo, and he is prepared to return to serve NS in 2010. As a parent who have been through NS in the 80's, I know for certain that NS at that time is very tough. With Sporeans living globally, just wonder how many overseas Singapore kids actually go back and serve NS, and wonder how hey react to a totally different culture. Any out there who have returned to serve NS, or kids who have returned to serve NS, please share your experience.
Many children do return to serve and the government does not let them off the hook easily. At the Singapore Day in London this year there was a huge NS stand and they engaged with children from a young age onwards. _________________ a.k.a. littlegreenman
My father is a ex-singaporean/canadian citizen, mother is Canadian/Iranian citizen/Singaporean citizen (She might have given up either Iranian or Singapore)
I was born in Singapore, got singaporean and Canadian citizenship but no IC. Left 2 months after i turned 11.
I skipped NS.
My father says all i have to do is renounce my Singapore citizenship at 21 and visit as a Canadian, will this pass?
Did you have a valid Singapore Passport that was valid after the age of 11? (pretty obvious if you left Singapore after you were eleven you would have needed a valid one to leave the country). If you did, then you will have been deemed to have enjoyed the socio-economic benefits of Singapore. With that in mind, your parents have shafted you royally. While you can come back into Singapore on a Canadian Passport, it will be easy to check up on you as they are in the process of linking the 6 major databases of the Government together into a massive super-database. That way, all they have to do is look at your Canadian passport to see where & when you were born. If it says you were born in Singapore, a quick query of the database for births on that date will through out, what, maybe half a dozen to a dozen at most? Get rid of half of them as the will be female. Once that has been established it will be easy to narrow down the identity of those remaining who are currently male & registered in Singapore, or if they have finished their NS obligation, or died, or immigrated legally. Those that are left surely could be identified if they are one of the 3 main races. The rest? gonna be damn few as Singapore isn't that big. How many birth/day do you reckon they have even now?
So, you can come back but if you are picked up it's gonna be rough with considerable jail time as they are out to make examples of deserters. And just think, you only have your parents to blame for not following protocol. They didn't use too much common sense when they took you out of the country and are still not showing too much common sense now. Be sure to thank them, yeah?
my friend is a PR who doesn't need to serve. matter fact he was born in Canada, moved to singapore when he was 1 year old as a PR. He can currently visit as much as he wants
Location: London/Singapore (back for good 29 Jul 2010)
Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 4:39 pm Post subject:
puppet wrote:
my friend is a PR who doesn't need to serve. matter fact he was born in Canada, moved to singapore when he was 1 year old as a PR. He can currently visit as much as he wants
Your friend will be in for a nasty surprise then. Unless he got an official exemption for whatever reason (handicapped...) there is no reason why he doesn't need to serve and it is just a matter of time until they catch him. Then it is jailhouse rock for him. _________________ a.k.a. littlegreenman
My son was born in New York and has dual citizenship too. It is important to keep up with the laws, nothing we write here is legal advice, we are not attorney's, but I commend you at your age at having found this topic to assist you.
Excellent job on not having a valid Singapore Passport, collecting the Singapore Pink Identity Card or staying in Singapore past age 11. May I now suggest the following, only if it has not already been done, much of it has been posted earlier, have your parents assist you if needed:
1. Declare your intention to renounce citizenship now: send a registered letter, with postcard return receipt for yourself, to ICA and MinDef declaring intention to renounce child's citizenship at age 21. Include a photocopy of your child’s birth certificate, citizenship certificate (if applicable), proof of foreign school enrollment / attendance, proof of departure date from Singapore along with a copy of every page of the Singapore and Foreign Passport. The addresses for this notification are as follows:
Central Manpower Base
3 Depot Road, #02-07
Singapore 109680
Tel# +65-6373-3132
2. Simultaneously apply on line for an exit permit now (even though you do not have a valid Singapore Passport and you already left Singapore) so that you come into compliance with their intentionally obscure regulations.
3. My son's MinDef reply letter indicated that we will not be required to post a bond, I resigned my Singapore PR and my wife resigned her Singapore Citizenship already, each case is handled individually but please get the ball rolling immediately. I will pm you the name of a Singapore attorney that you may wish to retain immediately.
There really should be no reason why someone under your circumstances should have to waist 2.5 years of their life (after the first 3 months of NS training it is all about squeezing free labor out of you anyway). Good luck young man!
HI, PK
I have a son age 18 and stay and study in Kuala Lumpur since on his 4 years and study international school in KL, and holding Singapore passport and he intend to go OZ for futher study on next year
Since last years Mindef call and he visit back singapore every 3 months shown the exit permit.
1)He apply thro the Talyor college for the OZ university .
and 2 days ago get the letter of offer from University on the next years March , I intend to let him go , question is if I apply for Deferment, I think Mindef will not allow. what I can do with this.
2)He have been call up for medical check up next months, can I apply for deferment?
2)I am holding Singapore passport so for the 2 children(1 boy and 1 girls) and If I apply for derferment, do you think I can do without any bond, since he left Singapore on 4 years old,
3)If I can not get the derferment, I thinking to get lawyer help, can you PM the lawyer
I have a son age 18 and stay and study in Kuala Lumpur since on his 4 years and study international school in KL, and holding Singapore passport and he intend to go OZ for futher study on next year
Since last years Mindef call and he visit back singapore every 3 months shown the exit permit.
1)He apply thro the Talyor college for the OZ university .
and 2 days ago get the letter of offer from University on the next years March , I intend to let him go , question is if I apply for Deferment, I think Mindef will not allow. what I can do with this.
2)He have been call up for medical check up next months, can I apply for deferment?
2)I am holding Singapore passport so for the 2 children(1 boy and 1 girls) and If I apply for derferment, do you think I can do without any bond, since he left Singapore on 4 years old,
3)If I can not get the derferment, I thinking to get lawyer help, can you PM the lawyer
[/b]
it's unlikely your son will get a long-enough deferment period to complete his university degree. he might be able to study for a year or two, at most before mindef starts saying NO DICE!
you cannot technically "defer" his medical check up. i recommend he brings along all his medical records and just go for it.
a bond is usually required for overseas study as an incentive for the liable child to return and complete his NS. it has nothing to do with wherther or not the parent is a singapore citizen.
no lawyer can help your son get a 3 or 4 year deferment. end of story!
i recommend he completes his NS before he goes to taylor->uni (melb?)
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